1 00:00:01,300 --> 00:00:12,970 [Music] 2 00:00:18,950 --> 00:00:16,189 the planet's popping Masters Almost sure 3 00:00:21,710 --> 00:00:18,960 we have a plan that's clearly maybe 4 00:00:24,670 --> 00:00:21,720 something maybe on the realm of man 5 00:00:27,830 --> 00:00:24,680 until we've thoroughly tested every last 6 00:00:32,530 --> 00:00:27,840 closed-chested view find the more you 7 00:00:41,090 --> 00:00:37,670 where would we be without THC we know 8 00:00:45,310 --> 00:00:41,100 the lion too is just know to a degree 9 00:00:51,190 --> 00:00:45,320 where would we be without THC 10 00:01:00,610 --> 00:00:52,920 wooden company 11 00:01:03,290 --> 00:01:00,620 [Music] 12 00:01:05,509 --> 00:01:03,300 brace yourself people from Sunny San 13 00:01:08,149 --> 00:01:05,519 Diego I'm Greg carlwood and it's pretty 14 00:01:09,890 --> 00:01:08,159 clear Society is on Shaky Ground with 15 00:01:12,350 --> 00:01:09,900 too many people living under a high 16 00:01:14,690 --> 00:01:12,360 degree of stress and irritation with 17 00:01:16,490 --> 00:01:14,700 very little Direction in their lives and 18 00:01:18,469 --> 00:01:16,500 if we reverse engineer many of our 19 00:01:20,510 --> 00:01:18,479 problems and why so many adults seem 20 00:01:22,550 --> 00:01:20,520 behind in Creative problem solving 21 00:01:25,130 --> 00:01:22,560 discernment emotional intelligence and 22 00:01:26,929 --> 00:01:25,140 independent thinking all roads lead to 23 00:01:29,450 --> 00:01:26,939 having to take a good hard look at the 24 00:01:31,130 --> 00:01:29,460 education system in this country not 25 00:01:32,810 --> 00:01:31,140 only have we been slowly slipping 26 00:01:34,490 --> 00:01:32,820 further down the list in most major 27 00:01:36,950 --> 00:01:34,500 categories for as long as I've been 28 00:01:38,990 --> 00:01:36,960 alive but our mandated school system 29 00:01:41,030 --> 00:01:39,000 seems to have been quite possibly 30 00:01:43,429 --> 00:01:41,040 crafted with ill intent from the ground 31 00:01:44,870 --> 00:01:43,439 up with investors in the system just 32 00:01:46,789 --> 00:01:44,880 looking to get more bodies on the 33 00:01:48,289 --> 00:01:46,799 assembly line as opposed to nurturing 34 00:01:50,990 --> 00:01:48,299 anyone that could actually become their 35 00:01:52,910 --> 00:01:51,000 competition emphasizing goal old star 36 00:01:54,770 --> 00:01:52,920 accumulation and pats on the head from 37 00:01:57,230 --> 00:01:54,780 authority figures over almost anything 38 00:01:59,149 --> 00:01:57,240 else breaking down the independent 39 00:02:01,190 --> 00:01:59,159 spirit of children in exchange for a 40 00:02:03,230 --> 00:02:01,200 regimented oppressive structure that is 41 00:02:05,569 --> 00:02:03,240 a closer match to prison than an optimal 42 00:02:07,490 --> 00:02:05,579 learning environment conditioning us to 43 00:02:09,410 --> 00:02:07,500 respond to bells and lockstep and 44 00:02:11,330 --> 00:02:09,420 preparing us for an adulthood where your 45 00:02:13,309 --> 00:02:11,340 work is never really done and those who 46 00:02:15,650 --> 00:02:13,319 can't conform are often labeled as slow 47 00:02:17,930 --> 00:02:15,660 from an incredibly early age or drugged 48 00:02:19,729 --> 00:02:17,940 until they feel appropriately numb and 49 00:02:21,830 --> 00:02:19,739 if this all might sound like I'm going a 50 00:02:23,809 --> 00:02:21,840 bit too far take a good look at the 51 00:02:25,250 --> 00:02:23,819 quality of food offered to our growing 52 00:02:26,990 --> 00:02:25,260 youth at some of the most important 53 00:02:28,970 --> 00:02:27,000 times in their development and tell me 54 00:02:31,610 --> 00:02:28,980 if it seems like they want optimized 55 00:02:33,350 --> 00:02:31,620 healthy robust children well lucky for 56 00:02:35,150 --> 00:02:33,360 us there are incredible people out there 57 00:02:36,830 --> 00:02:35,160 fighting for much better Alternatives 58 00:02:39,650 --> 00:02:36,840 like today's guest Carrie McDonald 59 00:02:42,290 --> 00:02:39,660 Carrie is a senior education fellow at 60 00:02:45,350 --> 00:02:42,300 the foundation of economic education and 61 00:02:47,750 --> 00:02:45,360 hosts the weekly liberated podcast she 62 00:02:49,790 --> 00:02:47,760 is also the author of unschooled raising 63 00:02:52,009 --> 00:02:49,800 curious well-educated children outside 64 00:02:54,110 --> 00:02:52,019 of the convention National classroom as 65 00:02:56,690 --> 00:02:54,120 well as being an adjunct scholar at the 66 00:02:58,729 --> 00:02:56,700 Cato Institute education policy fellow 67 00:03:01,369 --> 00:02:58,739 at State policy Network and a regular 68 00:03:03,350 --> 00:03:01,379 Forbes contributor Kerry's research 69 00:03:05,150 --> 00:03:03,360 interests include homeschooling and 70 00:03:07,130 --> 00:03:05,160 schooling Alternatives self-directed 71 00:03:10,130 --> 00:03:07,140 learning education entrepreneurship 72 00:03:12,530 --> 00:03:10,140 parent empowerment school choice and 73 00:03:14,690 --> 00:03:12,540 family and child policy she has a 74 00:03:16,790 --> 00:03:14,700 master's degree in education policy from 75 00:03:18,830 --> 00:03:16,800 Harvard University a bachelor's degree 76 00:03:20,390 --> 00:03:18,840 in economics from Bowdoin College and 77 00:03:22,729 --> 00:03:20,400 she is front and center in the very 78 00:03:24,890 --> 00:03:22,739 encouraging unschooling movement so 79 00:03:27,110 --> 00:03:24,900 let's get into it the education educator 80 00:03:29,390 --> 00:03:27,120 parents Empower and increasingly 81 00:03:31,430 --> 00:03:29,400 important unschooling Advocate Carrie 82 00:03:33,710 --> 00:03:31,440 welcome to the higher side 83 00:03:36,110 --> 00:03:33,720 hi Greg it's great to be here thanks for 84 00:03:39,649 --> 00:03:36,120 having me yeah this is a real pleasure 85 00:03:41,750 --> 00:03:39,659 your book is excellent I appreciate the 86 00:03:44,089 --> 00:03:41,760 Deep dive into the history of our 87 00:03:46,490 --> 00:03:44,099 education system the data we have 88 00:03:48,350 --> 00:03:46,500 regarding how it affects children and 89 00:03:50,089 --> 00:03:48,360 all the great Alternatives that you 90 00:03:52,550 --> 00:03:50,099 highlight and I like the term 91 00:03:54,649 --> 00:03:52,560 unschooling which you write is simply 92 00:03:56,869 --> 00:03:54,659 living and allowing your children to 93 00:03:59,330 --> 00:03:56,879 live without the Specter of conventional 94 00:04:02,270 --> 00:03:59,340 schooling and school-like thinking it is 95 00:04:04,970 --> 00:04:02,280 the act of fusing living and learning of 96 00:04:07,190 --> 00:04:04,980 seeing them as one and the same and it's 97 00:04:09,229 --> 00:04:07,200 hard to disagree with that but elaborate 98 00:04:12,229 --> 00:04:09,239 a bit for us if you could how does the 99 00:04:14,509 --> 00:04:12,239 philosophy behind unschooling compare to 100 00:04:16,670 --> 00:04:14,519 the philosophy behind conventional 101 00:04:18,890 --> 00:04:16,680 government schools 102 00:04:20,270 --> 00:04:18,900 that's a great question and I do kind of 103 00:04:22,250 --> 00:04:20,280 explore the history of the term 104 00:04:24,770 --> 00:04:22,260 unschooling as well as sort of the 105 00:04:26,990 --> 00:04:24,780 philosophical roots of unschooling or 106 00:04:29,090 --> 00:04:27,000 self-directed education I use the terms 107 00:04:31,070 --> 00:04:29,100 interchangeably throughout unschooled 108 00:04:35,150 --> 00:04:31,080 and the term unschooling was actually 109 00:04:37,490 --> 00:04:35,160 coined in 1977 by John Holt he was a 110 00:04:40,010 --> 00:04:37,500 renowned author and educator he wrote 111 00:04:42,830 --> 00:04:40,020 the best-selling books how children fail 112 00:04:45,590 --> 00:04:42,840 and how children learn in the 1960s and 113 00:04:47,749 --> 00:04:45,600 he became a real leading advocate for 114 00:04:50,749 --> 00:04:47,759 homeschooling and for parents opting out 115 00:04:53,030 --> 00:04:50,759 of government schools to educate their 116 00:04:55,189 --> 00:04:53,040 own children using the resources of 117 00:04:57,290 --> 00:04:55,199 their communities and really pushing for 118 00:04:59,390 --> 00:04:57,300 the self-directed approach to allow 119 00:05:01,790 --> 00:04:59,400 children's interests and passions to 120 00:05:04,249 --> 00:05:01,800 drive their learning instead of just 121 00:05:06,830 --> 00:05:04,259 sort of replicating school at home so he 122 00:05:08,810 --> 00:05:06,840 really pushed for what we would think of 123 00:05:10,969 --> 00:05:08,820 as more of this unstructured approach to 124 00:05:12,890 --> 00:05:10,979 homeschooling and not just changing the 125 00:05:15,050 --> 00:05:12,900 location of school to home but 126 00:05:17,629 --> 00:05:15,060 essentially importing all of those same 127 00:05:19,310 --> 00:05:17,639 characteristics of school with top-down 128 00:05:21,650 --> 00:05:19,320 expectations and curriculum and 129 00:05:23,870 --> 00:05:21,660 evaluation that we might see in sort of 130 00:05:26,270 --> 00:05:23,880 standard homeschooling environments and 131 00:05:28,490 --> 00:05:26,280 so really you know unschooling and 132 00:05:29,990 --> 00:05:28,500 self-directed education are truly the 133 00:05:31,670 --> 00:05:30,000 opposite of what we would consider 134 00:05:34,070 --> 00:05:31,680 standard schooling 135 00:05:36,409 --> 00:05:34,080 it's a much more bottom-up approach much 136 00:05:38,930 --> 00:05:36,419 more decentralized really again focused 137 00:05:41,390 --> 00:05:38,940 on an individual child's interests and 138 00:05:43,430 --> 00:05:41,400 passions and having that guide learning 139 00:05:45,170 --> 00:05:43,440 and the sort of fundamental premise as 140 00:05:48,290 --> 00:05:45,180 I'm sure you can appreciate as the 141 00:05:50,510 --> 00:05:48,300 father of a a young child a toddler at 142 00:05:53,570 --> 00:05:50,520 this point I mean young children are 143 00:05:55,550 --> 00:05:53,580 naturally curious and creative and 144 00:05:58,070 --> 00:05:55,560 especially I'm sure you'll see over the 145 00:05:59,689 --> 00:05:58,080 coming months and years you know they 146 00:06:01,850 --> 00:05:59,699 young children are incredibly 147 00:06:03,710 --> 00:06:01,860 inquisitive they're always asking why 148 00:06:05,810 --> 00:06:03,720 they're always eager to explore the 149 00:06:08,029 --> 00:06:05,820 world around them and figure out what 150 00:06:09,650 --> 00:06:08,039 things work and how things work and why 151 00:06:12,770 --> 00:06:09,660 they work that way 152 00:06:15,469 --> 00:06:12,780 and the sort of idea with unschooling is 153 00:06:18,050 --> 00:06:15,479 that those natural drives for learning 154 00:06:20,570 --> 00:06:18,060 can continue should continue will 155 00:06:22,270 --> 00:06:20,580 continue if we allow children to 156 00:06:25,189 --> 00:06:22,280 continue to learn in that really 157 00:06:26,809 --> 00:06:25,199 exploratory way that they are given the 158 00:06:29,090 --> 00:06:26,819 chance to do when they're young by 159 00:06:31,309 --> 00:06:29,100 simply not placing them into this kind 160 00:06:34,249 --> 00:06:31,319 of traditional schooling structure 161 00:06:36,050 --> 00:06:34,259 and the person who wrote the forward to 162 00:06:38,930 --> 00:06:36,060 my unschooled book is Boston College 163 00:06:41,330 --> 00:06:38,940 psychology Professor Peter gray who also 164 00:06:43,430 --> 00:06:41,340 wrote the book free to learn and he's a 165 00:06:46,430 --> 00:06:43,440 real advocate for unschooling and 166 00:06:48,350 --> 00:06:46,440 self-directed education and a Critic of 167 00:06:50,809 --> 00:06:48,360 forced schooling and compulsory 168 00:06:52,309 --> 00:06:50,819 schooling and he will say too that you 169 00:06:53,930 --> 00:06:52,319 know sort of these natural drives for 170 00:06:56,689 --> 00:06:53,940 Learning and Discovery don't turn 171 00:06:58,129 --> 00:06:56,699 themselves off when a child turns five 172 00:07:00,590 --> 00:06:58,139 or six years old and heads to 173 00:07:02,629 --> 00:07:00,600 kindergarten we turn them off with our 174 00:07:05,090 --> 00:07:02,639 coercive system of schooling to 175 00:07:06,170 --> 00:07:05,100 paraphrase his insights there and so I 176 00:07:08,749 --> 00:07:06,180 think that's just the sort of the 177 00:07:10,790 --> 00:07:08,759 general idea is let's just allow that 178 00:07:12,469 --> 00:07:10,800 creativity and curiosity in those 179 00:07:15,050 --> 00:07:12,479 natural drives for learning to continue 180 00:07:18,469 --> 00:07:15,060 throughout childhood and Adolescence 181 00:07:20,629 --> 00:07:18,479 yes that is a great setup and you made a 182 00:07:23,270 --> 00:07:20,639 good point there about kids in their 183 00:07:24,710 --> 00:07:23,280 youth before they reach the school age 184 00:07:27,409 --> 00:07:24,720 and that's something I was going to 185 00:07:29,510 --> 00:07:27,419 bring up that is in the book a lot you 186 00:07:32,089 --> 00:07:29,520 talk about the way we tend to think 187 00:07:33,890 --> 00:07:32,099 about kids at around the age of five or 188 00:07:36,350 --> 00:07:33,900 so when they start school we allow them 189 00:07:38,809 --> 00:07:36,360 to kind of grow and learn naturally for 190 00:07:42,529 --> 00:07:38,819 the first five years and then it's going 191 00:07:44,450 --> 00:07:42,539 to kindergarten and much like maybe the 192 00:07:45,770 --> 00:07:44,460 puberty stage of Life we've talked 193 00:07:47,629 --> 00:07:45,780 ourselves into thinking that there's 194 00:07:50,330 --> 00:07:47,639 this other stage of life around five 195 00:07:53,210 --> 00:07:50,340 where play time is over kids need to 196 00:07:55,370 --> 00:07:53,220 knuckle down and that declining 197 00:07:58,010 --> 00:07:55,380 childhood creativity is just a natural 198 00:08:00,710 --> 00:07:58,020 consequence of growing up but with 199 00:08:02,210 --> 00:08:00,720 unschooled kids we see something totally 200 00:08:04,370 --> 00:08:02,220 different right 201 00:08:06,230 --> 00:08:04,380 yeah so a couple of things there first I 202 00:08:08,749 --> 00:08:06,240 would say that really just even in the 203 00:08:11,570 --> 00:08:08,759 past generation we've seen schooling 204 00:08:13,790 --> 00:08:11,580 take over much more of children's lives 205 00:08:14,570 --> 00:08:13,800 and Adolescent lives than ever before we 206 00:08:17,150 --> 00:08:14,580 have 207 00:08:19,249 --> 00:08:17,160 schooling starting at much younger ages 208 00:08:22,550 --> 00:08:19,259 many children sort of in daycare 209 00:08:24,650 --> 00:08:22,560 preschool now we have Universal you know 210 00:08:28,249 --> 00:08:24,660 government preschool in some areas and 211 00:08:30,469 --> 00:08:28,259 Pre-K programs so that that standard 212 00:08:32,930 --> 00:08:30,479 schooling structure begins in some 213 00:08:35,690 --> 00:08:32,940 places much earlier than age five or six 214 00:08:37,010 --> 00:08:35,700 and extends much later into adolescence 215 00:08:39,769 --> 00:08:37,020 you know it was the case certainly when 216 00:08:42,110 --> 00:08:39,779 I was a teenager that you know teens in 217 00:08:43,730 --> 00:08:42,120 the afternoon had after-school jobs or 218 00:08:47,090 --> 00:08:43,740 would work on weekends and would have 219 00:08:49,670 --> 00:08:47,100 summer jobs and today not only is teen 220 00:08:52,550 --> 00:08:49,680 labor force participation down to sort 221 00:08:54,889 --> 00:08:52,560 of record lows but you also see that in 222 00:08:56,449 --> 00:08:54,899 place of the kind of real life work 223 00:08:59,170 --> 00:08:56,459 experience and some of these other 224 00:09:01,490 --> 00:08:59,180 experiences outside of school today's 225 00:09:03,829 --> 00:09:01,500 adolescents are you know frequently 226 00:09:05,750 --> 00:09:03,839 doing academic things they're continuing 227 00:09:07,790 --> 00:09:05,760 to do sort of school-like activities 228 00:09:11,509 --> 00:09:07,800 even in the after school and summer 229 00:09:15,530 --> 00:09:11,519 vacations and so on so forced schooling 230 00:09:17,810 --> 00:09:15,540 has really come to Define find so much 231 00:09:20,210 --> 00:09:17,820 of childhood and Adolescence and consume 232 00:09:22,130 --> 00:09:20,220 so much of young people's lives today 233 00:09:25,790 --> 00:09:22,140 much more than it was even a generation 234 00:09:28,130 --> 00:09:25,800 ago and along with that is this sort of 235 00:09:30,889 --> 00:09:28,140 push for expectations academic 236 00:09:32,990 --> 00:09:30,899 expectations down to younger ages so 237 00:09:36,110 --> 00:09:33,000 that at this point you know 238 00:09:37,670 --> 00:09:36,120 kindergartners are expected to read and 239 00:09:39,470 --> 00:09:37,680 if they're not reading by the end of 240 00:09:41,810 --> 00:09:39,480 kindergarten they're often labeled as 241 00:09:44,150 --> 00:09:41,820 reading delayed and all that's changed 242 00:09:46,130 --> 00:09:44,160 there are the expectations around 243 00:09:48,170 --> 00:09:46,140 kindergarten and early childhood 244 00:09:49,490 --> 00:09:48,180 development and learning not the 245 00:09:51,710 --> 00:09:49,500 children themselves and in fact there 246 00:09:53,509 --> 00:09:51,720 was an interesting research study done 247 00:09:57,350 --> 00:09:53,519 by researchers at the University of 248 00:09:59,750 --> 00:09:57,360 Virginia who found that in 1998 only 249 00:10:01,730 --> 00:09:59,760 about 30 percent of teachers surveyed 250 00:10:03,110 --> 00:10:01,740 kindergarten teachers surveyed said that 251 00:10:05,810 --> 00:10:03,120 children should be reading by the end of 252 00:10:07,850 --> 00:10:05,820 kindergarten and just 12 years later in 253 00:10:10,009 --> 00:10:07,860 the passage of No Child Left Behind at 254 00:10:11,870 --> 00:10:10,019 the federal level and pushed towards 255 00:10:15,530 --> 00:10:11,880 kind of standardized more standardized 256 00:10:17,810 --> 00:10:15,540 education by 2010 80 percent of teachers 257 00:10:19,490 --> 00:10:17,820 said that children should be reading by 258 00:10:21,530 --> 00:10:19,500 the end of kindergarten again all that 259 00:10:23,329 --> 00:10:21,540 had changed really was The Benchmark not 260 00:10:24,949 --> 00:10:23,339 the children and that's where we're 261 00:10:26,509 --> 00:10:24,959 seeing and we can go into this I'm sure 262 00:10:28,550 --> 00:10:26,519 in our discussion today what we're 263 00:10:31,310 --> 00:10:28,560 seeing kind of skyrocketing rates of 264 00:10:34,490 --> 00:10:31,320 children being labeled with ADHD and 265 00:10:37,009 --> 00:10:34,500 other sorts of maladies because in many 266 00:10:39,889 --> 00:10:37,019 cases they're just simply too young to 267 00:10:41,210 --> 00:10:39,899 be doing academic work that again a 268 00:10:43,090 --> 00:10:41,220 generation ago we wouldn't have even 269 00:10:46,370 --> 00:10:43,100 expected them to do 270 00:10:48,710 --> 00:10:46,380 great points and on the subject of 271 00:10:51,470 --> 00:10:48,720 benchmarks I'm actually a little curious 272 00:10:53,690 --> 00:10:51,480 because I hear a lot of maybe Hyperbole 273 00:10:56,389 --> 00:10:53,700 and then I just don't know where the 274 00:10:58,850 --> 00:10:56,399 truth really is in terms of the last 275 00:11:00,350 --> 00:10:58,860 couple years and what covet has done and 276 00:11:02,150 --> 00:11:00,360 the distance learning and all the 277 00:11:04,550 --> 00:11:02,160 policies around that and how it affected 278 00:11:06,470 --> 00:11:04,560 kids I've heard that kids are 279 00:11:08,449 --> 00:11:06,480 drastically behind traditional 280 00:11:10,850 --> 00:11:08,459 benchmarks I've heard that it's really 281 00:11:13,630 --> 00:11:10,860 not so bad I've even heard that the 282 00:11:16,550 --> 00:11:13,640 benchmarks themselves have been quietly 283 00:11:19,910 --> 00:11:16,560 changed the bar has been lowered so that 284 00:11:22,370 --> 00:11:19,920 it's easier to climb over because they 285 00:11:23,630 --> 00:11:22,380 know that there's been some setbacks 286 00:11:24,650 --> 00:11:23,640 because of this what are your thoughts 287 00:11:26,210 --> 00:11:24,660 on all that 288 00:11:28,430 --> 00:11:26,220 well I think there's a couple of 289 00:11:30,470 --> 00:11:28,440 interesting things with that that point 290 00:11:33,530 --> 00:11:30,480 and certainly all of these media 291 00:11:35,509 --> 00:11:33,540 headlines screaming about learning loss 292 00:11:37,970 --> 00:11:35,519 pandemic learning loss over the past 293 00:11:40,190 --> 00:11:37,980 couple of years of remote Zoom schooling 294 00:11:43,250 --> 00:11:40,200 through one's district and certainly 295 00:11:45,470 --> 00:11:43,260 that was sub-optimal and a disaster for 296 00:11:48,590 --> 00:11:45,480 some families with school districts 297 00:11:51,590 --> 00:11:48,600 simply not set up to perform you know 298 00:11:53,090 --> 00:11:51,600 remotely in other cases it was a way for 299 00:11:55,069 --> 00:11:53,100 families to actually see what was 300 00:11:57,170 --> 00:11:55,079 happening in their children's classrooms 301 00:11:58,670 --> 00:11:57,180 and maybe realize the curriculum wasn't 302 00:12:01,670 --> 00:11:58,680 actually that great to begin with 303 00:12:04,009 --> 00:12:01,680 whether it was in person or virtual but 304 00:12:06,050 --> 00:12:04,019 either way certainly the Focus right now 305 00:12:08,030 --> 00:12:06,060 is on this pandemic learning loss and I 306 00:12:11,750 --> 00:12:08,040 had an article not too long ago at 307 00:12:14,990 --> 00:12:11,760 fee.org where I basically said the issue 308 00:12:17,329 --> 00:12:15,000 here is not learning loss it's schooling 309 00:12:20,090 --> 00:12:17,339 it's sort of the you know we've talked 310 00:12:23,269 --> 00:12:20,100 about this for years with Summer slide 311 00:12:25,730 --> 00:12:23,279 which was the term used to describe this 312 00:12:28,730 --> 00:12:25,740 alleged learning loss from students from 313 00:12:29,990 --> 00:12:28,740 the spring semester than learning loss 314 00:12:31,670 --> 00:12:30,000 over the summer and then they come back 315 00:12:33,650 --> 00:12:31,680 in the fall and have forgotten what they 316 00:12:35,389 --> 00:12:33,660 learned in the spring and you know I 317 00:12:37,130 --> 00:12:35,399 made the point over several years 318 00:12:39,530 --> 00:12:37,140 including in the unschooled book and now 319 00:12:41,930 --> 00:12:39,540 again in terms of talking about this 320 00:12:44,930 --> 00:12:41,940 alleged covid learning loss that you 321 00:12:47,329 --> 00:12:44,940 know content that can be so easily lost 322 00:12:49,430 --> 00:12:47,339 was never really learned authentically 323 00:12:51,949 --> 00:12:49,440 to begin with you know I mean if it's so 324 00:12:54,110 --> 00:12:51,959 easy to lose all of that content was it 325 00:12:55,970 --> 00:12:54,120 ever really something that students 326 00:12:57,590 --> 00:12:55,980 really learned and had kind of 327 00:12:59,990 --> 00:12:57,600 internalized and sort of the same idea 328 00:13:02,690 --> 00:13:00,000 that you know if we graduate from high 329 00:13:05,269 --> 00:13:02,700 school let's say 18 if we can so quickly 330 00:13:07,009 --> 00:13:05,279 lose what we've supposedly learned over 331 00:13:08,690 --> 00:13:07,019 all of those years again what does it 332 00:13:10,610 --> 00:13:08,700 say about the quality of that learning 333 00:13:12,949 --> 00:13:10,620 and so that's sort of the the main point 334 00:13:15,110 --> 00:13:12,959 there that the quality of schooling and 335 00:13:17,030 --> 00:13:15,120 this kind of memorization and 336 00:13:18,769 --> 00:13:17,040 regurgitation that happens in 337 00:13:20,569 --> 00:13:18,779 conventional classrooms isn't really 338 00:13:22,850 --> 00:13:20,579 learning and sort of playing the game of 339 00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:22,860 school making sure you give the teacher 340 00:13:26,810 --> 00:13:24,720 the answer that he or she wants and that 341 00:13:29,629 --> 00:13:26,820 you regurgitate correctly on a test but 342 00:13:31,370 --> 00:13:29,639 it doesn't necessarily signal that 343 00:13:33,050 --> 00:13:31,380 you're actually learning meaningful 344 00:13:35,389 --> 00:13:33,060 content and then sort of the larger 345 00:13:38,210 --> 00:13:35,399 point is you'll much more likely 346 00:13:40,009 --> 00:13:38,220 learn content when it's tied to your 347 00:13:41,930 --> 00:13:40,019 interests and passions when it's kind of 348 00:13:43,790 --> 00:13:41,940 self-directed driven by you as an 349 00:13:45,470 --> 00:13:43,800 individual in pursuit of your own goals 350 00:13:47,629 --> 00:13:45,480 and objectives 351 00:13:49,850 --> 00:13:47,639 and I'll also say another you know sort 352 00:13:51,590 --> 00:13:49,860 of another viewpoint on that as I've 353 00:13:53,150 --> 00:13:51,600 talked to education entrepreneurs and 354 00:13:55,550 --> 00:13:53,160 microscope Founders across the country 355 00:13:57,650 --> 00:13:55,560 especially those who create these kind 356 00:13:59,990 --> 00:13:57,660 of outside of the system non-traditional 357 00:14:01,250 --> 00:14:00,000 education options like micro schools and 358 00:14:03,410 --> 00:14:01,260 learning pods and homeschool 359 00:14:07,190 --> 00:14:03,420 collaboratives and I talked to one 360 00:14:09,530 --> 00:14:07,200 microscope founder recently in Kansas 361 00:14:12,530 --> 00:14:09,540 who had worked for years in the Wichita 362 00:14:14,389 --> 00:14:12,540 Public Schools as a teacher had then 363 00:14:16,310 --> 00:14:14,399 left to create a tutoring center which 364 00:14:18,170 --> 00:14:16,320 she turned into a full-time microscope 365 00:14:20,990 --> 00:14:18,180 during the coveted response because her 366 00:14:22,550 --> 00:14:21,000 parents really wanted something formal 367 00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:22,560 and not just a kind of part-time 368 00:14:25,250 --> 00:14:24,000 tutoring program and they didn't want to 369 00:14:28,490 --> 00:14:25,260 send their kids back to the district 370 00:14:29,990 --> 00:14:28,500 schools and during her time of working 371 00:14:31,910 --> 00:14:30,000 with the tutoring center and then 372 00:14:33,650 --> 00:14:31,920 formulating the microscope and then 373 00:14:35,750 --> 00:14:33,660 looking at this supposed data on 374 00:14:38,870 --> 00:14:35,760 learning loss you know she said that 375 00:14:41,150 --> 00:14:38,880 really this just exposed kind of the low 376 00:14:44,389 --> 00:14:41,160 quality of learning that existed even 377 00:14:45,650 --> 00:14:44,399 prior to covet it just now people are 378 00:14:47,689 --> 00:14:45,660 more attuned to kind of those low 379 00:14:49,009 --> 00:14:47,699 expectations and those low performance 380 00:14:51,530 --> 00:14:49,019 benchmarks 381 00:14:54,650 --> 00:14:51,540 right on right on yeah I love hearing 382 00:14:57,290 --> 00:14:54,660 examples like that and great points it's 383 00:14:59,930 --> 00:14:57,300 not really about the coveted policies 384 00:15:01,990 --> 00:14:59,940 it's about the bad Foundation it's like 385 00:15:05,150 --> 00:15:02,000 the distance learning just through 386 00:15:08,110 --> 00:15:05,160 gasoline on an already pretty bad 387 00:15:11,990 --> 00:15:08,120 educational dumpster fire that we have 388 00:15:14,569 --> 00:15:12,000 and you also made the point that it did 389 00:15:16,610 --> 00:15:14,579 give parents an opportunity to get a 390 00:15:18,050 --> 00:15:16,620 closer look at their kids education and 391 00:15:20,030 --> 00:15:18,060 a lot of them didn't like what they were 392 00:15:22,250 --> 00:15:20,040 seeing I find it really exciting 393 00:15:25,129 --> 00:15:22,260 actually just how many different sectors 394 00:15:28,129 --> 00:15:25,139 of business during the last couple years 395 00:15:30,050 --> 00:15:28,139 saw how little control they had when it 396 00:15:31,970 --> 00:15:30,060 came to things like lockdowns and there 397 00:15:33,850 --> 00:15:31,980 are many people pivoting to make sure 398 00:15:36,230 --> 00:15:33,860 they don't fall into the same situation 399 00:15:37,910 --> 00:15:36,240 independent holistic health doctors are 400 00:15:40,370 --> 00:15:37,920 on the rise more business owners are 401 00:15:42,470 --> 00:15:40,380 looking into the private membership 402 00:15:44,810 --> 00:15:42,480 Association structure which gives them 403 00:15:46,730 --> 00:15:44,820 more freedom networking and local 404 00:15:49,430 --> 00:15:46,740 community action has never been stronger 405 00:15:51,230 --> 00:15:49,440 and in the education sector they this 406 00:15:53,930 --> 00:15:51,240 seems to be really popping off can you 407 00:15:55,970 --> 00:15:53,940 give people a sense of what this counter 408 00:15:58,129 --> 00:15:55,980 reaction really looks like across the 409 00:16:00,350 --> 00:15:58,139 country and how many new options 410 00:16:02,689 --> 00:16:00,360 families have now that they might not 411 00:16:05,329 --> 00:16:02,699 have had just three years ago 412 00:16:06,949 --> 00:16:05,339 yes that's such a great question Greg 413 00:16:09,230 --> 00:16:06,959 because I you know I think about the 414 00:16:12,170 --> 00:16:09,240 education disruption or transformation 415 00:16:13,910 --> 00:16:12,180 really over the past couple of years I 416 00:16:15,470 --> 00:16:13,920 like to put it into buckets of what I 417 00:16:18,769 --> 00:16:15,480 call the three E's so there's 418 00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:18,779 empowerment exit and Entrepreneurship 419 00:16:23,329 --> 00:16:21,360 and so you had this apparent empowerment 420 00:16:25,250 --> 00:16:23,339 certainly beginning in the spring of 421 00:16:26,750 --> 00:16:25,260 2020 where parents actually had a 422 00:16:28,129 --> 00:16:26,760 close-up look at what was happening in 423 00:16:30,530 --> 00:16:28,139 their kids schools and in their 424 00:16:32,030 --> 00:16:30,540 classrooms and then certainly throughout 425 00:16:34,910 --> 00:16:32,040 the rest of the kind of Academic Year 426 00:16:36,889 --> 00:16:34,920 2020 into 21 continue to kind of see the 427 00:16:39,230 --> 00:16:36,899 ways in which Local District Schools 428 00:16:42,050 --> 00:16:39,240 were not responsive to parents needs and 429 00:16:44,030 --> 00:16:42,060 yet private schools and parochial 430 00:16:46,310 --> 00:16:44,040 schools were much more responsive 431 00:16:47,930 --> 00:16:46,320 because of course they had bills to pay 432 00:16:50,210 --> 00:16:47,940 and they wouldn't be able to stay open 433 00:16:51,949 --> 00:16:50,220 if they didn't accommodate the families 434 00:16:54,949 --> 00:16:51,959 that were choosing them so we saw them 435 00:16:56,930 --> 00:16:54,959 much more adaptive and creative really 436 00:16:59,269 --> 00:16:56,940 in kind of getting back to normal as 437 00:17:01,430 --> 00:16:59,279 quickly and safely as possible so parent 438 00:17:03,230 --> 00:17:01,440 empowerment certainly in 2020 we also 439 00:17:05,090 --> 00:17:03,240 saw the rise then in 2020 any of what 440 00:17:07,610 --> 00:17:05,100 were called pandemic pause which were 441 00:17:11,090 --> 00:17:07,620 really these co-learning communities or 442 00:17:13,189 --> 00:17:11,100 co-ops that came together spontaneously 443 00:17:15,409 --> 00:17:13,199 families just realizing that school was 444 00:17:18,409 --> 00:17:15,419 going to stay shuttered or was going to 445 00:17:20,329 --> 00:17:18,419 continue being remote for an indefinite 446 00:17:22,069 --> 00:17:20,339 period of time and families realizing 447 00:17:23,750 --> 00:17:22,079 that they had to take matters into their 448 00:17:25,370 --> 00:17:23,760 own hands and to make sure their kids 449 00:17:28,069 --> 00:17:25,380 were getting that necessary social 450 00:17:30,230 --> 00:17:28,079 interaction and continue to learn the 451 00:17:32,210 --> 00:17:30,240 academic content that mattered to them 452 00:17:34,430 --> 00:17:32,220 and so that they ended up forming these 453 00:17:36,770 --> 00:17:34,440 you know parent-driven learning pods 454 00:17:39,770 --> 00:17:36,780 either with taking turns as parents 455 00:17:41,570 --> 00:17:39,780 leading a pod or in some cases hiring an 456 00:17:43,970 --> 00:17:41,580 adult educator to facilitate a 457 00:17:46,130 --> 00:17:43,980 curriculum and what was really exciting 458 00:17:49,430 --> 00:17:46,140 is that through that process we saw in 459 00:17:51,890 --> 00:17:49,440 2020 and 2021 a real exit from assigned 460 00:17:53,690 --> 00:17:51,900 district schools we saw the U.S 461 00:17:55,850 --> 00:17:53,700 homeschool population more than double 462 00:17:59,990 --> 00:17:55,860 according to the U.S Census Bureau in 463 00:18:02,029 --> 00:18:00,000 2020 to more than 11 of the US K-12 464 00:18:04,130 --> 00:18:02,039 school age population or more than 5 465 00:18:06,950 --> 00:18:04,140 million student events and the biggest 466 00:18:08,810 --> 00:18:06,960 driver of that exit of that growth in 467 00:18:10,789 --> 00:18:08,820 The Homeschool population were black 468 00:18:13,070 --> 00:18:10,799 homeschooling families black students 469 00:18:15,049 --> 00:18:13,080 became over-represented in The 470 00:18:17,930 --> 00:18:15,059 Homeschool population compared to the 471 00:18:20,150 --> 00:18:17,940 representation and the overall U.S K-12 472 00:18:21,770 --> 00:18:20,160 Public School population it was a 473 00:18:23,390 --> 00:18:21,780 five-fold increase that year according 474 00:18:25,310 --> 00:18:23,400 to the census of black homeschooling 475 00:18:27,590 --> 00:18:25,320 families and now even though you know 476 00:18:30,650 --> 00:18:27,600 we're more than two years into this and 477 00:18:33,590 --> 00:18:30,660 schools are back to normal we still see 478 00:18:36,110 --> 00:18:33,600 declining enrollment in many places and 479 00:18:38,690 --> 00:18:36,120 homeschooling rates still well above 480 00:18:40,730 --> 00:18:38,700 pre-pandemic levels and families really 481 00:18:42,110 --> 00:18:40,740 continuing to choose private schools 482 00:18:44,270 --> 00:18:42,120 parochial schools obviously 483 00:18:46,490 --> 00:18:44,280 homeschooling microschools is now 484 00:18:49,190 --> 00:18:46,500 roughly 2 million students attending 485 00:18:51,110 --> 00:18:49,200 microschools full-time which are sort of 486 00:18:52,430 --> 00:18:51,120 these hybrids between what we would 487 00:18:54,470 --> 00:18:52,440 think of as private schools and 488 00:18:56,750 --> 00:18:54,480 homeschooling and Charter School 489 00:18:58,610 --> 00:18:56,760 enrollment has also gone up so even 490 00:19:00,470 --> 00:18:58,620 though now we're you know several 491 00:19:02,930 --> 00:19:00,480 academic years into this we're still 492 00:19:04,850 --> 00:19:02,940 seeing districts in many places lose 493 00:19:07,010 --> 00:19:04,860 enrollment the Boston Globe just talking 494 00:19:09,289 --> 00:19:07,020 recently about Boston Public Schools 495 00:19:11,029 --> 00:19:09,299 down again enrollment this year 496 00:19:13,310 --> 00:19:11,039 and I think it's just because parents 497 00:19:15,289 --> 00:19:13,320 really have been empowered to take 498 00:19:17,270 --> 00:19:15,299 matters into their own hands to search 499 00:19:19,310 --> 00:19:17,280 for other options to create other 500 00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:19,320 options and to collaborate with others 501 00:19:23,690 --> 00:19:21,360 to do that and you know you ask for an 502 00:19:25,130 --> 00:19:23,700 example so I can give you uh I can talk 503 00:19:27,110 --> 00:19:25,140 all day about some examples but I'll 504 00:19:28,909 --> 00:19:27,120 give you one that I think speaks to what 505 00:19:30,830 --> 00:19:28,919 you're talking about with pmas these 506 00:19:32,870 --> 00:19:30,840 private membership associations that 507 00:19:34,370 --> 00:19:32,880 have really come on the scene and I 508 00:19:36,230 --> 00:19:34,380 think been really popular and certainly 509 00:19:39,049 --> 00:19:36,240 serve an important purpose 510 00:19:40,730 --> 00:19:39,059 one example is an education entrepreneur 511 00:19:42,890 --> 00:19:40,740 who I interviewed for my podcast and 512 00:19:44,750 --> 00:19:42,900 I've written about her Jill Perez in New 513 00:19:47,630 --> 00:19:44,760 Jersey she was a long time public school 514 00:19:49,730 --> 00:19:47,640 teacher in New Jersey and when covid hit 515 00:19:51,590 --> 00:19:49,740 she ended up creating a pandemic pod 516 00:19:54,049 --> 00:19:51,600 with some other families 517 00:19:55,850 --> 00:19:54,059 didn't want to subject her kids to 518 00:19:58,190 --> 00:19:55,860 remote learning and kind of coveted 519 00:20:00,289 --> 00:19:58,200 policies in the classroom and so 520 00:20:02,510 --> 00:20:00,299 throughout the Academic Year she and 521 00:20:03,890 --> 00:20:02,520 several other families met and continued 522 00:20:05,810 --> 00:20:03,900 learning and having that social 523 00:20:08,630 --> 00:20:05,820 interaction and it became so popular 524 00:20:10,250 --> 00:20:08,640 with other members of her community that 525 00:20:13,450 --> 00:20:10,260 they urged her to do something more 526 00:20:16,130 --> 00:20:13,460 formal so last year in the fall of 2021 527 00:20:18,950 --> 00:20:16,140 she ended up leasing a building and 528 00:20:22,610 --> 00:20:18,960 opening a full full-time micro school 529 00:20:25,310 --> 00:20:22,620 with about 45 kids and she hired 530 00:20:27,409 --> 00:20:25,320 Educators Public School teachers from 531 00:20:31,010 --> 00:20:27,419 New York City Public Schools who were 532 00:20:33,350 --> 00:20:31,020 burnt out and fed up with the kinds of 533 00:20:35,630 --> 00:20:33,360 ongoing coveted policies that they were 534 00:20:36,770 --> 00:20:35,640 contending with and remote schooling and 535 00:20:38,150 --> 00:20:36,780 all the uncertainties and 536 00:20:40,850 --> 00:20:38,160 unpredictabilities that they had to 537 00:20:42,590 --> 00:20:40,860 contend with and she was able to recruit 538 00:20:44,510 --> 00:20:42,600 them into her micro school she said you 539 00:20:45,710 --> 00:20:44,520 know I can't pay them as much as they're 540 00:20:47,570 --> 00:20:45,720 making in the New York City Public 541 00:20:50,810 --> 00:20:47,580 Schools but I can offer them that 542 00:20:52,610 --> 00:20:50,820 creativity that flexibility that freedom 543 00:20:54,590 --> 00:20:52,620 that they are missing in district 544 00:20:57,049 --> 00:20:54,600 schools and this is the kind of example 545 00:20:59,150 --> 00:20:57,059 that we see certainly that I see across 546 00:21:00,669 --> 00:20:59,160 the country Jill set up her program as a 547 00:21:02,810 --> 00:21:00,679 private membership Association 548 00:21:04,370 --> 00:21:02,820 interestingly New Jersey is one of the 549 00:21:06,529 --> 00:21:04,380 easiest states in the country to 550 00:21:08,570 --> 00:21:06,539 homeschool in they have very light 551 00:21:10,850 --> 00:21:08,580 regulation of homeschooling and so it's 552 00:21:13,310 --> 00:21:10,860 easy to kind of gather families together 553 00:21:15,950 --> 00:21:13,320 in these voluntary communities to create 554 00:21:17,870 --> 00:21:15,960 these co-learning spaces and so it's 555 00:21:19,250 --> 00:21:17,880 been really successful for her and I'll 556 00:21:20,750 --> 00:21:19,260 just add one more thing it's been so 557 00:21:22,310 --> 00:21:20,760 successful that she ended up purchasing 558 00:21:23,930 --> 00:21:22,320 a building for her microscope and 559 00:21:26,750 --> 00:21:23,940 continues to expand 560 00:21:28,370 --> 00:21:26,760 hmm beautiful well examples like that 561 00:21:31,010 --> 00:21:28,380 are great and the fact that she's 562 00:21:33,049 --> 00:21:31,020 expanding is even better but you do 563 00:21:35,149 --> 00:21:33,059 bring up something I wanted to dig into 564 00:21:37,490 --> 00:21:35,159 a little more with you and that is that 565 00:21:39,950 --> 00:21:37,500 not all states are created equal when it 566 00:21:42,350 --> 00:21:39,960 comes to homeschooling freedoms or the 567 00:21:45,230 --> 00:21:42,360 lack thereof can you fill us in a bit 568 00:21:47,330 --> 00:21:45,240 more on which states are out on both the 569 00:21:49,370 --> 00:21:47,340 good and bad extremes when it comes to 570 00:21:51,590 --> 00:21:49,380 this and have there been any new laws 571 00:21:54,649 --> 00:21:51,600 passed in the wake of the last couple 572 00:21:56,570 --> 00:21:54,659 years that stick out as shining examples 573 00:21:58,549 --> 00:21:56,580 when it comes to what we want to see in 574 00:22:00,649 --> 00:21:58,559 education optionality 575 00:22:02,210 --> 00:22:00,659 yeah I mean I think there's so much to 576 00:22:04,610 --> 00:22:02,220 unpack there 577 00:22:06,649 --> 00:22:04,620 certainly there are states that are low 578 00:22:08,870 --> 00:22:06,659 regulation of homeschooling obviously 579 00:22:10,789 --> 00:22:08,880 New Jersey being one of them and then 580 00:22:12,710 --> 00:22:10,799 some states like New York that are 581 00:22:14,330 --> 00:22:12,720 you're just again right next door to New 582 00:22:16,970 --> 00:22:14,340 Jersey but are among the most difficult 583 00:22:19,130 --> 00:22:16,980 to homeschool in one of the things I've 584 00:22:21,169 --> 00:22:19,140 been spending the past year doing though 585 00:22:23,450 --> 00:22:21,179 is talking with education entrepreneurs 586 00:22:24,770 --> 00:22:23,460 these microscope Founders and creators 587 00:22:26,390 --> 00:22:24,780 of learning pods and other 588 00:22:27,950 --> 00:22:26,400 non-traditional models across the 589 00:22:30,529 --> 00:22:27,960 country about what some of their 590 00:22:32,510 --> 00:22:30,539 challenges are as they try to start 591 00:22:35,090 --> 00:22:32,520 their programs and try to scale their 592 00:22:37,789 --> 00:22:35,100 programs and it's interesting to kind of 593 00:22:39,649 --> 00:22:37,799 see where there are these hubs of 594 00:22:41,750 --> 00:22:39,659 Education entrepreneurship I think of 595 00:22:43,850 --> 00:22:41,760 for example South Florida where I spent 596 00:22:46,390 --> 00:22:43,860 a lot of time over the fall there's a 597 00:22:49,130 --> 00:22:46,400 real cluster of micro schools there 598 00:22:51,169 --> 00:22:49,140 majority minority owned majority 599 00:22:53,510 --> 00:22:51,179 minority students and those micro 600 00:22:55,549 --> 00:22:53,520 schools and they're able to access these 601 00:22:57,230 --> 00:22:55,559 micro schools through Florida's robust 602 00:22:59,630 --> 00:22:57,240 school choice programs they have tax 603 00:23:01,850 --> 00:22:59,640 credit scholarship programs that allow 604 00:23:04,610 --> 00:23:01,860 income eligible families to attend some 605 00:23:06,230 --> 00:23:04,620 of these programs which tend to be lower 606 00:23:09,230 --> 00:23:06,240 costs than traditional private options 607 00:23:11,090 --> 00:23:09,240 more generally microschools are often a 608 00:23:12,950 --> 00:23:11,100 quarter of the cost in some cases of 609 00:23:15,529 --> 00:23:12,960 traditional private schools they're 610 00:23:17,990 --> 00:23:15,539 these intentionally small mixed stage 611 00:23:20,870 --> 00:23:18,000 one-room schoolhouse models usually 612 00:23:23,510 --> 00:23:20,880 under 50 kids and really with that 613 00:23:25,850 --> 00:23:23,520 personalized Mastery based curriculum 614 00:23:28,850 --> 00:23:25,860 and so we're seeing those clusters there 615 00:23:31,190 --> 00:23:28,860 Florida also tends to be very kind of 616 00:23:33,289 --> 00:23:31,200 open to entrepreneurship and unlike the 617 00:23:36,350 --> 00:23:33,299 rest of the country remained open during 618 00:23:37,730 --> 00:23:36,360 2020 and 2021 and kind of encouraged 619 00:23:39,950 --> 00:23:37,740 more entrepreneurship there so they're 620 00:23:41,330 --> 00:23:39,960 ahead of the pack and then I'm also 621 00:23:42,890 --> 00:23:41,340 seeing clusters of Education 622 00:23:45,470 --> 00:23:42,900 entrepreneurship in states without 623 00:23:48,289 --> 00:23:45,480 robust school choice policies I think of 624 00:23:50,149 --> 00:23:48,299 for example in Kansas there's a real 625 00:23:52,310 --> 00:23:50,159 cluster of Education entrepreneurs in 626 00:23:54,049 --> 00:23:52,320 the Wichita Kansas area another state 627 00:23:56,029 --> 00:23:54,059 that tends to be really easy to open 628 00:23:58,730 --> 00:23:56,039 businesses in and be an entrepreneur in 629 00:24:01,669 --> 00:23:58,740 and so even though there's no school 630 00:24:04,130 --> 00:24:01,679 choice policies there it tends to be a 631 00:24:05,930 --> 00:24:04,140 low regular nation state for these 632 00:24:08,090 --> 00:24:05,940 education entrepreneurs and innovators 633 00:24:10,190 --> 00:24:08,100 so they're able to try something new 634 00:24:12,169 --> 00:24:10,200 and get that off the ground but that's a 635 00:24:14,510 --> 00:24:12,179 key issue is just making it easy for 636 00:24:16,549 --> 00:24:14,520 these education entrepreneurs to start 637 00:24:19,250 --> 00:24:16,559 and scale their organizations by 638 00:24:22,190 --> 00:24:19,260 removing barriers that they may be 639 00:24:28,010 --> 00:24:24,830 yes and I had heard that Arizona just 640 00:24:30,649 --> 00:24:28,020 passed a great law for educational 641 00:24:32,450 --> 00:24:30,659 choice and West Virginia is doing some 642 00:24:34,310 --> 00:24:32,460 good things I don't hear much about 643 00:24:35,930 --> 00:24:34,320 California I know I have to leave the 644 00:24:37,730 --> 00:24:35,940 state for a lot of reasons but I do 645 00:24:40,250 --> 00:24:37,740 think that's one of them I did hear 646 00:24:42,649 --> 00:24:40,260 Through the Grapevine that at least 647 00:24:45,529 --> 00:24:42,659 locally in San Diego there's a bit of an 648 00:24:47,029 --> 00:24:45,539 issue with the unschooling movement I 649 00:24:48,950 --> 00:24:47,039 mean it's happening everywhere so there 650 00:24:51,529 --> 00:24:48,960 are groups here but 651 00:24:53,990 --> 00:24:51,539 I guess legislators or the government is 652 00:24:56,570 --> 00:24:54,000 coming in and like I mean we're required 653 00:24:58,610 --> 00:24:56,580 Nationwide for kids to go to school and 654 00:25:01,010 --> 00:24:58,620 so I guess the state can kind of decide 655 00:25:02,690 --> 00:25:01,020 what qualifies as a school and they 656 00:25:04,730 --> 00:25:02,700 don't think a bunch of kids playing in 657 00:25:06,470 --> 00:25:04,740 the park qualifies as a school there's 658 00:25:07,789 --> 00:25:06,480 some of that struggle going on here from 659 00:25:09,830 --> 00:25:07,799 what I understand 660 00:25:11,630 --> 00:25:09,840 well I think there's always a tax on 661 00:25:13,610 --> 00:25:11,640 homeschoolers and certainly 662 00:25:17,690 --> 00:25:13,620 non-traditional learning models anything 663 00:25:20,570 --> 00:25:17,700 that's outside of the norm tends to um 664 00:25:22,070 --> 00:25:20,580 maybe confuse people especially policy 665 00:25:23,930 --> 00:25:22,080 makers who like to put people into 666 00:25:25,789 --> 00:25:23,940 standard boxes and certainly don't like 667 00:25:27,649 --> 00:25:25,799 competition with district schools I will 668 00:25:29,510 --> 00:25:27,659 say though that California is another 669 00:25:31,310 --> 00:25:29,520 state where it's relatively easy to 670 00:25:33,649 --> 00:25:31,320 homeschool there's lots of homeschoolers 671 00:25:35,090 --> 00:25:33,659 there it's also relatively easy to start 672 00:25:37,010 --> 00:25:35,100 a private school so it's interesting 673 00:25:39,470 --> 00:25:37,020 that some states that we would think of 674 00:25:42,649 --> 00:25:39,480 as highly restrictive in some areas High 675 00:25:45,049 --> 00:25:42,659 regulation States for some sectors can 676 00:25:46,370 --> 00:25:45,059 be you know easier when it comes to 677 00:25:47,990 --> 00:25:46,380 non-traditional education and 678 00:25:50,870 --> 00:25:48,000 homeschooling that doesn't mean that it 679 00:25:52,610 --> 00:25:50,880 won't still entails and battles and some 680 00:25:54,529 --> 00:25:52,620 fight for liberty among homeschoolers 681 00:25:57,590 --> 00:25:54,539 and unschoolers there but tends to be 682 00:25:59,210 --> 00:25:57,600 easier interestingly in a policy paper I 683 00:26:01,190 --> 00:25:59,220 wrote for State policy Network earlier 684 00:26:02,750 --> 00:26:01,200 this fall that kind of looks at some of 685 00:26:04,490 --> 00:26:02,760 these key challenges that education 686 00:26:07,010 --> 00:26:04,500 entrepreneurs encounter across the 687 00:26:10,190 --> 00:26:07,020 country I talk about a report that came 688 00:26:12,950 --> 00:26:10,200 out in 2021 by the Cato Institute that 689 00:26:14,390 --> 00:26:12,960 ranked the states according to how 690 00:26:16,010 --> 00:26:14,400 friendly they were toward 691 00:26:18,110 --> 00:26:16,020 entrepreneurship and this was in all 692 00:26:20,450 --> 00:26:18,120 sectors not just education but all 693 00:26:23,390 --> 00:26:20,460 sectors including highly regulated 694 00:26:26,210 --> 00:26:23,400 Industries like alcohol and they found 695 00:26:28,010 --> 00:26:26,220 that in the top five states for a kind 696 00:26:29,810 --> 00:26:28,020 of entrepreneurial friendliness low 697 00:26:31,490 --> 00:26:29,820 regulation for entrepreneurs was 698 00:26:33,350 --> 00:26:31,500 Colorado 699 00:26:34,669 --> 00:26:33,360 And yet when I talk to education 700 00:26:36,230 --> 00:26:34,679 entrepreneurs 701 00:26:38,029 --> 00:26:36,240 some of them said that they wouldn't 702 00:26:40,010 --> 00:26:38,039 even think about going to Colorado as 703 00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:40,020 they scale their microscope networks and 704 00:26:43,549 --> 00:26:42,000 so on because it can be so difficult to 705 00:26:46,310 --> 00:26:43,559 be an education entrepreneur in that 706 00:26:48,529 --> 00:26:46,320 state so that shows too that even states 707 00:26:51,049 --> 00:26:48,539 that could be friendly toward 708 00:26:53,330 --> 00:26:51,059 entrepreneurs and other sectors might 709 00:26:54,470 --> 00:26:53,340 not be friendly to entrepreneurs in 710 00:26:58,130 --> 00:26:54,480 education 711 00:27:00,230 --> 00:26:58,140 and it's just state by state yeah good 712 00:27:02,750 --> 00:27:00,240 points it's a mixed bag everywhere it 713 00:27:05,390 --> 00:27:02,760 seems and to get a little more into the 714 00:27:07,789 --> 00:27:05,400 history of the American education system 715 00:27:10,190 --> 00:27:07,799 another good line in the book one of 716 00:27:12,590 --> 00:27:10,200 yours actually is that American 717 00:27:14,630 --> 00:27:12,600 schooling was designed to strip the joy 718 00:27:17,090 --> 00:27:14,640 of natural learning of following the 719 00:27:19,789 --> 00:27:17,100 human will to explore and discover in 720 00:27:22,430 --> 00:27:19,799 favor of Conformity and compliance 721 00:27:24,350 --> 00:27:22,440 I agree but talk to us about that word 722 00:27:26,390 --> 00:27:24,360 designed because a lot of people might 723 00:27:29,570 --> 00:27:26,400 think our schools have been neglected 724 00:27:32,149 --> 00:27:29,580 that they've slowly eroded in quality 725 00:27:33,649 --> 00:27:32,159 but to say they were designed to produce 726 00:27:35,269 --> 00:27:33,659 a lot of the problems they produce is 727 00:27:37,010 --> 00:27:35,279 another thing what can you tell us about 728 00:27:39,529 --> 00:27:37,020 the history of the American school 729 00:27:41,330 --> 00:27:39,539 system that shows this to be the case 730 00:27:43,490 --> 00:27:41,340 right so in the book I traced the 731 00:27:45,890 --> 00:27:43,500 history of American education and 732 00:27:49,010 --> 00:27:45,900 compulsory schooling dating back to the 733 00:27:51,649 --> 00:27:49,020 17th century so soon after the pilgrims 734 00:27:56,510 --> 00:27:51,659 arrived in what became Massachusetts Bay 735 00:27:58,490 --> 00:27:56,520 Colony in Plymouth in 1620 about two 736 00:28:01,789 --> 00:27:58,500 decades later they passed the colonies 737 00:28:04,430 --> 00:28:01,799 first compulsory education laws that 738 00:28:07,730 --> 00:28:04,440 required cities or towns of a certain 739 00:28:11,390 --> 00:28:07,740 size to provide educational resources so 740 00:28:14,390 --> 00:28:11,400 smaller towns were required to hire a 741 00:28:16,909 --> 00:28:14,400 teacher and larger towns and cities were 742 00:28:18,830 --> 00:28:16,919 required to open and operate a grammar 743 00:28:21,470 --> 00:28:18,840 school and so at that time in the in the 744 00:28:24,769 --> 00:28:21,480 17th century the compulsion with 745 00:28:27,049 --> 00:28:24,779 education rested on cities and towns the 746 00:28:30,049 --> 00:28:27,059 municipalities to provide educational 747 00:28:32,750 --> 00:28:30,059 options to families that wanted them 748 00:28:35,690 --> 00:28:32,760 and yet at the time you also throughout 749 00:28:37,909 --> 00:28:35,700 the colonial and revolutionary era had a 750 00:28:40,610 --> 00:28:37,919 whole mix of Education options you did 751 00:28:42,350 --> 00:28:40,620 have these public schools that were in 752 00:28:44,930 --> 00:28:42,360 these cities and towns required by law 753 00:28:47,269 --> 00:28:44,940 to be created but you also had a wide 754 00:28:49,490 --> 00:28:47,279 assortment of private schools and 755 00:28:51,529 --> 00:28:49,500 charity schools and church schools you 756 00:28:53,690 --> 00:28:51,539 had what were known as Dame schools 757 00:28:55,250 --> 00:28:53,700 which we would consider little in-home 758 00:28:57,289 --> 00:28:55,260 Nursery schools 759 00:28:59,210 --> 00:28:57,299 in your neighbor's kitchen who would 760 00:29:01,850 --> 00:28:59,220 teach kind of the three R's to young 761 00:29:04,190 --> 00:29:01,860 children and homeschooling was of course 762 00:29:06,350 --> 00:29:04,200 the default during the colonial and 763 00:29:07,970 --> 00:29:06,360 American revolutionary eras and 764 00:29:10,909 --> 00:29:07,980 apprenticeships were really the key 765 00:29:13,669 --> 00:29:10,919 pathway for adolescents into adulthood 766 00:29:16,909 --> 00:29:13,679 and all of that really changed beginning 767 00:29:19,789 --> 00:29:16,919 in 1852 with Massachusetts my home state 768 00:29:22,789 --> 00:29:19,799 leading the way again in compulsion with 769 00:29:27,169 --> 00:29:22,799 passing the country's first compulsory 770 00:29:29,389 --> 00:29:27,179 schooling statute 1852 now requiring all 771 00:29:31,430 --> 00:29:29,399 parents to send their children to an 772 00:29:33,889 --> 00:29:31,440 assigned District school under a legal 773 00:29:35,930 --> 00:29:33,899 threat of force and that was really a 774 00:29:37,789 --> 00:29:35,940 shift from again the compulsion being on 775 00:29:40,190 --> 00:29:37,799 the municipality to the compulsion being 776 00:29:41,990 --> 00:29:40,200 on the parents and I think that that was 777 00:29:44,810 --> 00:29:42,000 the moment where we really did see this 778 00:29:46,250 --> 00:29:44,820 shift of design to compliance and 779 00:29:48,529 --> 00:29:46,260 Conformity if we think about what was 780 00:29:51,110 --> 00:29:48,539 happening certainly in the Boston area 781 00:29:54,169 --> 00:29:51,120 in the early 19th century early to mid 782 00:29:56,149 --> 00:29:54,179 19th century there was a tremendous 783 00:29:59,810 --> 00:29:56,159 amount of immigration the city of Boston 784 00:30:01,610 --> 00:29:59,820 doubled in size between 1820 and 1840 785 00:30:04,190 --> 00:30:01,620 and most of that immigration was coming 786 00:30:07,090 --> 00:30:04,200 from Irish Catholic immigrants to Boston 787 00:30:10,010 --> 00:30:07,100 who really challenged the dominant 788 00:30:12,649 --> 00:30:10,020 Anglo-Saxon Protestant culture of the 789 00:30:13,970 --> 00:30:12,659 time and people in Massachusetts didn't 790 00:30:16,610 --> 00:30:13,980 like that you know just a couple of 791 00:30:17,870 --> 00:30:16,620 years before Massachusetts passed its 792 00:30:20,450 --> 00:30:17,880 compulsory attendance law the 793 00:30:23,330 --> 00:30:20,460 Massachusetts state legislature 794 00:30:25,850 --> 00:30:23,340 said and thou quote those pouring in 795 00:30:28,669 --> 00:30:25,860 Upon Us in masses of thousands upon 796 00:30:30,549 --> 00:30:28,679 thousands are holy of another kind in 797 00:30:33,070 --> 00:30:30,559 morals and intellect 798 00:30:35,870 --> 00:30:33,080 and this was a true you know 799 00:30:39,110 --> 00:30:35,880 anti-catholic anti-immigrant sentiment 800 00:30:40,730 --> 00:30:39,120 that was pervasive in Massachusetts and 801 00:30:42,889 --> 00:30:40,740 in the Boston area at the time and then 802 00:30:45,769 --> 00:30:42,899 that really led to 803 00:30:47,750 --> 00:30:45,779 the creation of compulsory schooling and 804 00:30:49,250 --> 00:30:47,760 the sense that all children had to 805 00:30:50,450 --> 00:30:49,260 attend these what were known as common 806 00:30:52,970 --> 00:30:50,460 schools 807 00:30:55,130 --> 00:30:52,980 the architect of that was Horace Mann 808 00:30:57,350 --> 00:30:55,140 who was instrumental in passing that 809 00:30:58,909 --> 00:30:57,360 first compulsory schooling statute based 810 00:31:00,710 --> 00:30:58,919 on the kind of Prussian model of 811 00:31:03,169 --> 00:31:00,720 learning that he was so enamored with 812 00:31:04,850 --> 00:31:03,179 and what was interesting is that even 813 00:31:09,130 --> 00:31:04,860 though these common schools at the time 814 00:31:12,529 --> 00:31:09,140 were supposedly secular they had all 815 00:31:14,870 --> 00:31:12,539 Protestant teachers and texts 816 00:31:16,130 --> 00:31:14,880 and they were you know for all intents 817 00:31:18,350 --> 00:31:16,140 and purposes what we would think of as 818 00:31:20,750 --> 00:31:18,360 Protestant trying to 819 00:31:22,549 --> 00:31:20,760 kind of mold these young children into 820 00:31:24,110 --> 00:31:22,559 the dominant culture of the times and 821 00:31:26,389 --> 00:31:24,120 and it's really interesting because a 822 00:31:27,830 --> 00:31:26,399 lot of these Catholic families rebelled 823 00:31:30,049 --> 00:31:27,840 and they started creating their own 824 00:31:31,789 --> 00:31:30,059 parallel system of parochial schools 825 00:31:33,470 --> 00:31:31,799 throughout the latter part of the 19th 826 00:31:36,590 --> 00:31:33,480 century so we're not sending our kids to 827 00:31:38,870 --> 00:31:36,600 these purportedly secular but obviously 828 00:31:40,549 --> 00:31:38,880 Protestant common schools so they 829 00:31:43,610 --> 00:31:40,559 created their own system of private 830 00:31:47,210 --> 00:31:43,620 schools and that all came to a peak in 831 00:31:49,250 --> 00:31:47,220 the 1920s when Oregon tried to ban 832 00:31:51,769 --> 00:31:49,260 attendance at any private schools they 833 00:31:54,529 --> 00:31:51,779 wanted children to only attend public 834 00:31:55,909 --> 00:31:54,539 schools and at the time in Oregon really 835 00:31:58,370 --> 00:31:55,919 the only private schools that were in 836 00:32:01,010 --> 00:31:58,380 existence were parochial schools there 837 00:32:01,970 --> 00:32:01,020 weren't independent private schools and 838 00:32:04,370 --> 00:32:01,980 thankfully 839 00:32:07,730 --> 00:32:04,380 the U.S Supreme Court shot down that 840 00:32:10,610 --> 00:32:07,740 Oregon law in the landmark Supreme Court 841 00:32:13,190 --> 00:32:10,620 case of Pierce versus the Society of 842 00:32:16,970 --> 00:32:13,200 sisters where they said that the child 843 00:32:18,310 --> 00:32:16,980 is not the mere creature of the state 844 00:32:21,649 --> 00:32:18,320 hmm 845 00:32:23,210 --> 00:32:21,659 well that is a great history lesson and 846 00:32:26,169 --> 00:32:23,220 the quote you read I feel like I could 847 00:32:30,350 --> 00:32:26,179 hear that even today in a lot of cases 848 00:32:32,090 --> 00:32:30,360 and the fights the struggles seem to be 849 00:32:35,210 --> 00:32:32,100 similar today there's a lot of talk 850 00:32:37,490 --> 00:32:35,220 about Educators sliding in their 851 00:32:39,289 --> 00:32:37,500 cultural beliefs or their political or 852 00:32:42,590 --> 00:32:39,299 religious views that really have no 853 00:32:44,510 --> 00:32:42,600 place in the classroom and it just seems 854 00:32:46,190 --> 00:32:44,520 like that's a tale as old as time but 855 00:32:49,549 --> 00:32:46,200 Horus man we have talked about him 856 00:32:52,190 --> 00:32:49,559 before and the Prussian model more of a 857 00:32:54,470 --> 00:32:52,200 militaristic regimented type of system 858 00:32:57,049 --> 00:32:54,480 obviously that is what we have if you 859 00:32:58,669 --> 00:32:57,059 just examine it but something I didn't 860 00:33:01,190 --> 00:32:58,679 know that I learned from your book is 861 00:33:03,350 --> 00:33:01,200 that Horace Mann also created the 862 00:33:06,769 --> 00:33:03,360 nation's first mental institution in 863 00:33:08,690 --> 00:33:06,779 1833 so people can make it that what 864 00:33:11,930 --> 00:33:08,700 they will if they thought that went very 865 00:33:14,930 --> 00:33:11,940 well but you make other great points 866 00:33:18,889 --> 00:33:14,940 about the myths we've been told as to 867 00:33:20,690 --> 00:33:18,899 why National compulsory education was 868 00:33:23,690 --> 00:33:20,700 developed one of those is that we were 869 00:33:25,909 --> 00:33:23,700 told that illiteracy was rampant in the 870 00:33:26,930 --> 00:33:25,919 1800s but apparently that's not all that 871 00:33:28,610 --> 00:33:26,940 true 872 00:33:30,230 --> 00:33:28,620 yeah I'll just say one other thing about 873 00:33:33,230 --> 00:33:30,240 Horace man that's really interesting is 874 00:33:36,110 --> 00:33:33,240 he homeschooled his own children while 875 00:33:38,210 --> 00:33:36,120 mandating compulsory schooling for 876 00:33:40,370 --> 00:33:38,220 others and if you read some of his 877 00:33:41,690 --> 00:33:40,380 writings he had a lot of contempt for 878 00:33:44,509 --> 00:33:41,700 parents 879 00:33:48,350 --> 00:33:44,519 you know calling them hostages to our 880 00:33:50,570 --> 00:33:48,360 cause and so forth really this disdain 881 00:33:52,370 --> 00:33:50,580 for parents and especially again these 882 00:33:55,009 --> 00:33:52,380 parents who kind of conflicted with the 883 00:33:57,409 --> 00:33:55,019 dominant cultural ethos of the time 884 00:33:59,269 --> 00:33:57,419 so right so at the time there was this 885 00:34:01,610 --> 00:33:59,279 sense that oh or at least historically 886 00:34:04,970 --> 00:34:01,620 The Narrative has been that we need a 887 00:34:07,190 --> 00:34:04,980 compulsory common schooling because of 888 00:34:09,290 --> 00:34:07,200 low literacy rates and yet if you look 889 00:34:11,329 --> 00:34:09,300 at the data it will show that we 890 00:34:14,210 --> 00:34:11,339 actually had quite High literacy rates 891 00:34:15,710 --> 00:34:14,220 in Massachusetts upwards of 90 literacy 892 00:34:19,790 --> 00:34:15,720 rates at the time that compulsory 893 00:34:22,129 --> 00:34:19,800 schooling laws were passed certainly you 894 00:34:24,530 --> 00:34:22,139 know it was illegal at the time for 895 00:34:26,990 --> 00:34:24,540 slaves to be taught to read and I talk 896 00:34:28,730 --> 00:34:27,000 in my book actually about some slave 897 00:34:31,010 --> 00:34:28,740 communities where they actually defied 898 00:34:33,169 --> 00:34:31,020 those laws with the thirst for knowledge 899 00:34:34,790 --> 00:34:33,179 and literacy was strong and so many of 900 00:34:37,550 --> 00:34:34,800 them defied those laws to teach 901 00:34:38,810 --> 00:34:37,560 themselves and others helped to educate 902 00:34:41,930 --> 00:34:38,820 slaves as well even though it was 903 00:34:44,629 --> 00:34:41,940 against the law women were obviously not 904 00:34:47,629 --> 00:34:44,639 as equitably recognized in educational 905 00:34:50,510 --> 00:34:47,639 settings as men and yet still we had 906 00:34:53,210 --> 00:34:50,520 high levels of literacy at the time 907 00:34:55,310 --> 00:34:53,220 yeah I just found some of that to be 908 00:34:57,650 --> 00:34:55,320 pretty surprising worth fitting in here 909 00:35:00,470 --> 00:34:57,660 and I'm not sure what the literacy rate 910 00:35:02,770 --> 00:35:00,480 is today but I definitely thought people 911 00:35:05,690 --> 00:35:02,780 were much more illiterate in the past 912 00:35:06,829 --> 00:35:05,700 yeah I mean it's hard to know I guess it 913 00:35:09,130 --> 00:35:06,839 would probably be a little bit 914 00:35:11,930 --> 00:35:09,140 anachronistic to kind of compare 915 00:35:14,329 --> 00:35:11,940 literacy rates then and now different 916 00:35:15,829 --> 00:35:14,339 kind of standards of literacy but 917 00:35:17,870 --> 00:35:15,839 certainly when we see some of these 918 00:35:20,089 --> 00:35:17,880 standardized test scores coming out of 919 00:35:21,829 --> 00:35:20,099 different parts of this country you know 920 00:35:23,630 --> 00:35:21,839 it's hard to say that we're actually 921 00:35:24,950 --> 00:35:23,640 quite a bit more literate even though of 922 00:35:27,050 --> 00:35:24,960 course kids are spending so much more 923 00:35:29,510 --> 00:35:27,060 time in compulsory schooling settings 924 00:35:31,069 --> 00:35:29,520 and yet not necessarily having the 925 00:35:33,670 --> 00:35:31,079 outcomes that 926 00:35:35,810 --> 00:35:33,680 education reformers would want 927 00:35:37,430 --> 00:35:35,820 yeah you're right about it being a 928 00:35:39,530 --> 00:35:37,440 little difficult to compare I think even 929 00:35:42,410 --> 00:35:39,540 the quality of literature and the 930 00:35:44,450 --> 00:35:42,420 quality the complexity even of like what 931 00:35:47,390 --> 00:35:44,460 kids might have been reading then or 932 00:35:49,010 --> 00:35:47,400 people in general then versus now it's 933 00:35:52,310 --> 00:35:49,020 quite different but while we're talking 934 00:35:54,770 --> 00:35:52,320 about reading and writing critics of the 935 00:35:57,470 --> 00:35:54,780 unschooling movement might say that 936 00:35:59,690 --> 00:35:57,480 self-directed learning is great for kids 937 00:36:01,490 --> 00:35:59,700 sure if you're interested in bugs this 938 00:36:03,410 --> 00:36:01,500 week let's learn about bugs if you want 939 00:36:05,690 --> 00:36:03,420 to know how concrete works next week 940 00:36:07,550 --> 00:36:05,700 we'll do that but eventually we have to 941 00:36:10,910 --> 00:36:07,560 learn to read and write eventually we 942 00:36:13,370 --> 00:36:10,920 have to learn things kids might not want 943 00:36:16,130 --> 00:36:13,380 to sit down and learn what would you say 944 00:36:18,829 --> 00:36:16,140 to that and just the the idea of 945 00:36:20,390 --> 00:36:18,839 contrasting teaching reading versus 946 00:36:21,950 --> 00:36:20,400 learning reading 947 00:36:25,010 --> 00:36:21,960 yeah I mean I guess a couple of things 948 00:36:26,510 --> 00:36:25,020 there you know one is just this 949 00:36:28,190 --> 00:36:26,520 sense within unschooling and 950 00:36:30,650 --> 00:36:28,200 self-directed educational philosophy 951 00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:30,660 that if you allow individuals to pursue 952 00:36:34,490 --> 00:36:32,400 their own passions and interests they'll 953 00:36:37,490 --> 00:36:34,500 learn through that process so if a child 954 00:36:40,370 --> 00:36:37,500 is interested in bugs like you said 955 00:36:42,050 --> 00:36:40,380 they'll want to you know read about bugs 956 00:36:44,150 --> 00:36:42,060 and learn about bugs 957 00:36:46,849 --> 00:36:44,160 and discover more that way so it's an 958 00:36:48,829 --> 00:36:46,859 entry point into learning reading and 959 00:36:50,870 --> 00:36:48,839 writing and arithmetic through their 960 00:36:53,390 --> 00:36:50,880 interests but it's all driven by them 961 00:36:55,010 --> 00:36:53,400 with their ability to opt out at any 962 00:36:56,930 --> 00:36:55,020 time and kind of move on to another 963 00:36:58,849 --> 00:36:56,940 interest so it's these kind of bottom-up 964 00:37:00,589 --> 00:36:58,859 educational approach instead of a 965 00:37:02,390 --> 00:37:00,599 top-down approach of saying this is what 966 00:37:04,130 --> 00:37:02,400 you're going to learn in this way at 967 00:37:06,470 --> 00:37:04,140 this time with this specific assessment 968 00:37:08,569 --> 00:37:06,480 model and the other point that I make in 969 00:37:10,849 --> 00:37:08,579 the unschooled book is that unschooling 970 00:37:13,010 --> 00:37:10,859 doesn't mean that you're never using 971 00:37:14,990 --> 00:37:13,020 formal curriculum or you're not learning 972 00:37:17,990 --> 00:37:15,000 what we would consider a traditional way 973 00:37:20,569 --> 00:37:18,000 it just means that you're choosing that 974 00:37:23,270 --> 00:37:20,579 curriculum or that standard approach so 975 00:37:25,310 --> 00:37:23,280 you will find many students who learn in 976 00:37:26,930 --> 00:37:25,320 unschooled environments or Sudbury model 977 00:37:29,210 --> 00:37:26,940 schools which I talk about in the book 978 00:37:31,310 --> 00:37:29,220 quite extensively and other kinds of 979 00:37:33,470 --> 00:37:31,320 self-directed learning settings that you 980 00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:33,480 know as children certainly get later 981 00:37:37,790 --> 00:37:35,520 into their childhood and Adolescence 982 00:37:40,250 --> 00:37:37,800 they may have goals to attend college or 983 00:37:41,810 --> 00:37:40,260 to achieve some kind of career goal and 984 00:37:44,210 --> 00:37:41,820 then they'll start you know studying for 985 00:37:46,370 --> 00:37:44,220 the SATs or taking Community College 986 00:37:48,349 --> 00:37:46,380 classes or potentially even doing what 987 00:37:50,089 --> 00:37:48,359 we would consider a conventional High 988 00:37:52,849 --> 00:37:50,099 School curriculum but it's again all 989 00:37:54,530 --> 00:37:52,859 driven by them with their ability to 990 00:37:56,089 --> 00:37:54,540 quit with their ability to exit if 991 00:37:58,670 --> 00:37:56,099 that's not what they want and to shift 992 00:38:00,710 --> 00:37:58,680 gears and it's in some ways giving young 993 00:38:03,530 --> 00:38:00,720 people the same level of respect as 994 00:38:06,349 --> 00:38:03,540 individual people that we would want as 995 00:38:09,230 --> 00:38:06,359 adults right that if we are you know not 996 00:38:11,210 --> 00:38:09,240 happy for example in a specific job or 997 00:38:12,770 --> 00:38:11,220 specific career path that we have the 998 00:38:14,390 --> 00:38:12,780 ability to quit we have the ability to 999 00:38:15,950 --> 00:38:14,400 move on to something different and it's 1000 00:38:18,470 --> 00:38:15,960 sort of providing that same sort of 1001 00:38:19,810 --> 00:38:18,480 freedom and flexibility to young people 1002 00:38:22,089 --> 00:38:19,820 mm-hmm 1003 00:38:25,069 --> 00:38:22,099 good points and 1004 00:38:26,569 --> 00:38:25,079 the parts of the book that talk about 1005 00:38:28,430 --> 00:38:26,579 reading I just thought were really 1006 00:38:31,849 --> 00:38:28,440 interesting because you have people who 1007 00:38:36,470 --> 00:38:31,859 have studied this and their assessment 1008 00:38:38,450 --> 00:38:36,480 is that kids learn to read 1009 00:38:41,750 --> 00:38:38,460 not necessarily are taught to read it's 1010 00:38:44,030 --> 00:38:41,760 kind of weird to think about but we kind 1011 00:38:45,589 --> 00:38:44,040 of assume you send your kid to school 1012 00:38:49,190 --> 00:38:45,599 and the teacher teaches them to read 1013 00:38:51,470 --> 00:38:49,200 over time but we don't necessarily have 1014 00:38:53,510 --> 00:38:51,480 much of a comparison as to what would 1015 00:38:55,069 --> 00:38:53,520 have happened if we didn't send them to 1016 00:38:58,670 --> 00:38:55,079 school and we just introduced them to 1017 00:39:01,190 --> 00:38:58,680 stories they liked and kind of let them 1018 00:39:04,329 --> 00:39:01,200 self-direct their own reading ability 1019 00:39:08,569 --> 00:39:04,339 but experts seem to say that reading 1020 00:39:10,609 --> 00:39:08,579 isn't as as much of a a taught skill as 1021 00:39:12,530 --> 00:39:10,619 it is just a naturally learned skill 1022 00:39:14,810 --> 00:39:12,540 that we don't need to be taught to read 1023 00:39:16,670 --> 00:39:14,820 from some authority figure necessarily 1024 00:39:18,410 --> 00:39:16,680 and I don't know I just I never really 1025 00:39:20,750 --> 00:39:18,420 thought much about that but it was 1026 00:39:23,450 --> 00:39:20,760 pretty interesting well there's always 1027 00:39:24,829 --> 00:39:23,460 discussions on the reading Wars right I 1028 00:39:26,510 --> 00:39:24,839 mean we heard actually there was just a 1029 00:39:28,609 --> 00:39:26,520 renewed interest in the reading Wars 1030 00:39:31,069 --> 00:39:28,619 It's phonics versus whole language and 1031 00:39:33,829 --> 00:39:31,079 the Pendulum typically swings back and 1032 00:39:36,050 --> 00:39:33,839 forth depending on the expert consensus 1033 00:39:37,430 --> 00:39:36,060 of the day but one of the things that 1034 00:39:39,290 --> 00:39:37,440 you know I talk about in the unschool 1035 00:39:42,290 --> 00:39:39,300 book is just how children would learn to 1036 00:39:44,030 --> 00:39:42,300 read and gain natural literacy outside 1037 00:39:46,370 --> 00:39:44,040 of a standard School setting so there's 1038 00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:46,380 one kind of category of talking about 1039 00:39:50,089 --> 00:39:48,240 what's the best way to teach reading or 1040 00:39:51,710 --> 00:39:50,099 to have children be literate within a 1041 00:39:53,329 --> 00:39:51,720 standard school system and that's where 1042 00:39:56,270 --> 00:39:53,339 I think some of the debates today come 1043 00:39:59,030 --> 00:39:56,280 from a whole language versus phonics but 1044 00:40:00,770 --> 00:39:59,040 if we can remove that whole Paradigm of 1045 00:40:02,450 --> 00:40:00,780 Education from a standard setting and 1046 00:40:04,250 --> 00:40:02,460 think about how children learn outside 1047 00:40:06,050 --> 00:40:04,260 of conventional schooling it's a 1048 00:40:08,329 --> 00:40:06,060 completely different ball game and 1049 00:40:10,609 --> 00:40:08,339 that's where you know for example I talk 1050 00:40:12,589 --> 00:40:10,619 about research in the book looking at 1051 00:40:14,450 --> 00:40:12,599 young people who've learned outside of a 1052 00:40:17,510 --> 00:40:14,460 conventional School setting 1053 00:40:20,030 --> 00:40:17,520 researchers in England finding that the 1054 00:40:21,710 --> 00:40:20,040 average age of proficiency for reading 1055 00:40:23,750 --> 00:40:21,720 meaning a child could read almost 1056 00:40:25,670 --> 00:40:23,760 anything that they're given is about 1057 00:40:28,130 --> 00:40:25,680 eight and a half if we think about a 1058 00:40:30,230 --> 00:40:28,140 bell curve of reading competence it 1059 00:40:32,390 --> 00:40:30,240 would start you know kind of early maybe 1060 00:40:34,550 --> 00:40:32,400 an early reader around four years old 1061 00:40:36,230 --> 00:40:34,560 and then a late reader maybe 11 years 1062 00:40:37,730 --> 00:40:36,240 old and kind of the bell curve the 1063 00:40:39,950 --> 00:40:37,740 middle of the bell curve would be around 1064 00:40:41,990 --> 00:40:39,960 eight and a half and like I mentioned 1065 00:40:44,390 --> 00:40:42,000 earlier in our discussion Greg you know 1066 00:40:46,970 --> 00:40:44,400 today's expectations in standard 1067 00:40:50,990 --> 00:40:46,980 schooling sessions in standard schooling 1068 00:40:53,390 --> 00:40:51,000 settings for literacy really you're at 1069 00:40:55,730 --> 00:40:53,400 the far left of that bell curve really 1070 00:40:57,290 --> 00:40:55,740 expecting now four and five-year-olds to 1071 00:40:59,630 --> 00:40:57,300 be learning to read and reading 1072 00:41:01,550 --> 00:40:59,640 proficiently even though again maybe 1073 00:41:02,930 --> 00:41:01,560 it's more closer to eight and a half but 1074 00:41:05,210 --> 00:41:02,940 if you had an eight and a half year old 1075 00:41:07,370 --> 00:41:05,220 in a standard Public School setting that 1076 00:41:09,290 --> 00:41:07,380 was not reading proficiently it's very 1077 00:41:12,170 --> 00:41:09,300 likely that they would be labeled with a 1078 00:41:13,430 --> 00:41:12,180 reading delay or reading disability when 1079 00:41:16,069 --> 00:41:13,440 it could just be that they're not quite 1080 00:41:17,810 --> 00:41:16,079 ready to read yeah yeah or they're just 1081 00:41:20,390 --> 00:41:17,820 disinterested as well that's another 1082 00:41:22,010 --> 00:41:20,400 huge factor and if I can just add one 1083 00:41:23,329 --> 00:41:22,020 other point to that sure put a fine 1084 00:41:25,010 --> 00:41:23,339 point on it as 1085 00:41:26,329 --> 00:41:25,020 one of the things you hear over and over 1086 00:41:28,250 --> 00:41:26,339 and I talk about this in the book as 1087 00:41:30,349 --> 00:41:28,260 well is that those quote unquote later 1088 00:41:33,470 --> 00:41:30,359 readers those children that read maybe 1089 00:41:35,750 --> 00:41:33,480 at eight or later tend to become very 1090 00:41:37,849 --> 00:41:35,760 proficient readers very quickly so they 1091 00:41:41,150 --> 00:41:37,859 may not be reading at all or very little 1092 00:41:42,950 --> 00:41:41,160 and then once they hit that kind of peak 1093 00:41:45,470 --> 00:41:42,960 point of proficiency they're reading 1094 00:41:47,690 --> 00:41:45,480 Harry Potter within a couple of weeks 1095 00:41:49,069 --> 00:41:47,700 and that's an interesting anecdote that 1096 00:41:52,190 --> 00:41:49,079 I heard over and over and that's also 1097 00:41:54,470 --> 00:41:52,200 captured in in some of these data yeah 1098 00:41:56,270 --> 00:41:54,480 yeah great points there's examples in 1099 00:41:58,670 --> 00:41:56,280 the book where kids who are late readers 1100 00:42:01,010 --> 00:41:58,680 end up reading way more complex stuff 1101 00:42:02,569 --> 00:42:01,020 way sooner because once they decide 1102 00:42:05,450 --> 00:42:02,579 they're interested in it it kind of 1103 00:42:07,490 --> 00:42:05,460 takes off and I have developed an 1104 00:42:09,410 --> 00:42:07,500 interest in the work of Rudolph Steiner 1105 00:42:12,650 --> 00:42:09,420 to a degree and some of the stuff he 1106 00:42:14,510 --> 00:42:12,660 says about education just I really like 1107 00:42:17,030 --> 00:42:14,520 things I don't expect to hear and he's 1108 00:42:19,190 --> 00:42:17,040 has some really off the wall ideas and 1109 00:42:20,990 --> 00:42:19,200 one of them is around reading like he 1110 00:42:23,569 --> 00:42:21,000 didn't think kids needed to learn to 1111 00:42:26,150 --> 00:42:23,579 read until way later that the structure 1112 00:42:30,109 --> 00:42:26,160 of language and reading actually 1113 00:42:31,730 --> 00:42:30,119 hindered their creative spirits and I've 1114 00:42:33,050 --> 00:42:31,740 thought about Waldorf schools as an 1115 00:42:35,329 --> 00:42:33,060 alternative and then when I hear about 1116 00:42:37,069 --> 00:42:35,339 that I'm like I don't know there's also 1117 00:42:38,870 --> 00:42:37,079 a couple other things I don't love like 1118 00:42:40,490 --> 00:42:38,880 having to sign a document that says 1119 00:42:42,589 --> 00:42:40,500 there'll be no technology in the house 1120 00:42:43,970 --> 00:42:42,599 it's like okay you know I'm not Amish 1121 00:42:46,250 --> 00:42:43,980 we're gonna have a little technology 1122 00:42:48,349 --> 00:42:46,260 around that doesn't mean I want iPads in 1123 00:42:50,890 --> 00:42:48,359 the classroom but you know it is what it 1124 00:42:54,650 --> 00:42:50,900 is there's a lot of these Alternatives 1125 00:42:56,990 --> 00:42:54,660 Montessori Waldorf you find and in the 1126 00:42:59,450 --> 00:42:57,000 book you talk about this they're 1127 00:43:01,910 --> 00:42:59,460 different but not necessarily different 1128 00:43:04,670 --> 00:43:01,920 enough they're still built on similar 1129 00:43:08,030 --> 00:43:04,680 scaffolding and a similar Foundation to 1130 00:43:10,730 --> 00:43:08,040 traditional schools and unschooling is 1131 00:43:14,270 --> 00:43:10,740 really a much Bolder and much more 1132 00:43:16,250 --> 00:43:14,280 different situation maybe you could talk 1133 00:43:18,109 --> 00:43:16,260 to us about that through a couple of 1134 00:43:20,390 --> 00:43:18,119 stories about your own kids because I've 1135 00:43:23,690 --> 00:43:20,400 heard you tell stories about how this 1136 00:43:26,210 --> 00:43:23,700 has worked and that really uh sounded 1137 00:43:28,130 --> 00:43:26,220 like it's working pretty well for you 1138 00:43:29,809 --> 00:43:28,140 yeah I mean I think it's interesting so 1139 00:43:31,910 --> 00:43:29,819 we have these Alternative Learning 1140 00:43:33,829 --> 00:43:31,920 models that are very child-centered 1141 00:43:35,690 --> 00:43:33,839 Montessori and Waldorf being two 1142 00:43:37,730 --> 00:43:35,700 examples you're right that in many 1143 00:43:39,890 --> 00:43:37,740 Waldorf schools they don't even begin to 1144 00:43:41,630 --> 00:43:39,900 teach reading until much later than 1145 00:43:43,510 --> 00:43:41,640 children would learn to read in 1146 00:43:46,670 --> 00:43:43,520 traditional schools because they do 1147 00:43:48,589 --> 00:43:46,680 recognize that bell curve of reading 1148 00:43:50,510 --> 00:43:48,599 confidence and do kind of push it more 1149 00:43:51,410 --> 00:43:50,520 towards the center of the bell curve 1150 00:43:53,089 --> 00:43:51,420 there 1151 00:43:54,170 --> 00:43:53,099 so that's interesting and they're just 1152 00:43:55,670 --> 00:43:54,180 they're beautiful educational 1153 00:43:58,430 --> 00:43:55,680 philosophies you know one of the things 1154 00:44:00,410 --> 00:43:58,440 I often say is that my preferred 1155 00:44:02,390 --> 00:44:00,420 educational philosophy and approach is 1156 00:44:05,510 --> 00:44:02,400 self-directed education and unschooling 1157 00:44:07,910 --> 00:44:05,520 but my larger priority is to expand the 1158 00:44:10,510 --> 00:44:07,920 amount and diversity of Education 1159 00:44:13,910 --> 00:44:10,520 options that families are able to access 1160 00:44:15,589 --> 00:44:13,920 you know I have my preference but other 1161 00:44:17,990 --> 00:44:15,599 families might find that something else 1162 00:44:19,670 --> 00:44:18,000 is a better match for their child's 1163 00:44:21,890 --> 00:44:19,680 individual needs and interests or their 1164 00:44:23,510 --> 00:44:21,900 families you know vision and values and 1165 00:44:24,890 --> 00:44:23,520 and that's great and I think that's 1166 00:44:27,050 --> 00:44:24,900 what's so exciting right now about the 1167 00:44:28,790 --> 00:44:27,060 microscope movement and education 1168 00:44:32,630 --> 00:44:28,800 entrepreneurship more broadly as we're 1169 00:44:35,450 --> 00:44:32,640 just seeing this abundance of options 1170 00:44:37,609 --> 00:44:35,460 and diversity of options ranging from 1171 00:44:39,410 --> 00:44:37,619 these unschooling Learning Centers and 1172 00:44:42,470 --> 00:44:39,420 micro schools to Montessori micro 1173 00:44:44,270 --> 00:44:42,480 schools to classical models of micro 1174 00:44:45,890 --> 00:44:44,280 schooling you know kind of something for 1175 00:44:47,329 --> 00:44:45,900 everybody so that's just great to see 1176 00:44:49,910 --> 00:44:47,339 and it really is just about what 1177 00:44:52,550 --> 00:44:49,920 individual families preferences are 1178 00:44:54,470 --> 00:44:52,560 but in terms of unschooling and 1179 00:44:56,089 --> 00:44:54,480 self-directed education you know I write 1180 00:44:57,650 --> 00:44:56,099 a lot about in the book about my 1181 00:45:00,050 --> 00:44:57,660 children's experiences of kind of 1182 00:45:01,670 --> 00:45:00,060 learning outside of schooling through 1183 00:45:03,710 --> 00:45:01,680 you know following their own passions 1184 00:45:06,530 --> 00:45:03,720 and interests I talk a lot about the 1185 00:45:08,630 --> 00:45:06,540 Sudbury model of schooling modeled after 1186 00:45:11,870 --> 00:45:08,640 Sudbury Valley School which was founded 1187 00:45:13,609 --> 00:45:11,880 in 1968 and continues to exist today my 1188 00:45:17,030 --> 00:45:13,619 younger kids actually attend Sudbury 1189 00:45:19,010 --> 00:45:17,040 Valley and Sudbury the Sudbury model has 1190 00:45:21,410 --> 00:45:19,020 now expanded across the world to dozens 1191 00:45:23,750 --> 00:45:21,420 of other Sudbury style schools and 1192 00:45:25,490 --> 00:45:23,760 Sudbury was modeled after the Summer 1193 00:45:29,089 --> 00:45:25,500 Hill School the famed Summerhill school 1194 00:45:31,609 --> 00:45:29,099 that was founded in England in 1921 by 1195 00:45:34,670 --> 00:45:31,619 a.s Neo and then as Neil ended up 1196 00:45:37,130 --> 00:45:34,680 writing a book in 1960 called Summer 1197 00:45:39,230 --> 00:45:37,140 Hill School a new view of childhood that 1198 00:45:41,569 --> 00:45:39,240 ended up selling about 2 million copies 1199 00:45:44,089 --> 00:45:41,579 in its first decade in print and 1200 00:45:46,250 --> 00:45:44,099 inspired other Educators like John Holt 1201 00:45:47,990 --> 00:45:46,260 who I mentioned earlier on was the 1202 00:45:50,390 --> 00:45:48,000 person who coined the term unschooling 1203 00:45:52,970 --> 00:45:50,400 as well as Paul Goodman who wrote 1204 00:45:55,190 --> 00:45:52,980 compulsory miseducation and Yvonne 1205 00:45:57,650 --> 00:45:55,200 Ilyich who wrote the schooling society 1206 00:45:59,329 --> 00:45:57,660 and so on so it's interesting just to 1207 00:46:00,950 --> 00:45:59,339 see where all of this kind of fits into 1208 00:46:03,589 --> 00:46:00,960 the self-directed the modern 1209 00:46:04,250 --> 00:46:03,599 self-directed education movement today 1210 00:46:06,890 --> 00:46:04,260 um 1211 00:46:08,690 --> 00:46:06,900 very interesting and in terms of your 1212 00:46:11,329 --> 00:46:08,700 own kids I've heard you say that I think 1213 00:46:14,390 --> 00:46:11,339 it's your oldest daughter she started in 1214 00:46:16,730 --> 00:46:14,400 martial arts on her own Direction and 1215 00:46:18,770 --> 00:46:16,740 then from there was interested in Korean 1216 00:46:21,470 --> 00:46:18,780 culture and language and then from there 1217 00:46:23,870 --> 00:46:21,480 you just found someone locally who 1218 00:46:25,790 --> 00:46:23,880 speaks Korean as a first language and 1219 00:46:28,309 --> 00:46:25,800 set up meetings with them and now your 1220 00:46:31,010 --> 00:46:28,319 daughter has learned Korean yeah yeah 1221 00:46:32,809 --> 00:46:31,020 that's a perfect example of there was a 1222 00:46:35,329 --> 00:46:32,819 new martial arts studio that was opening 1223 00:46:37,250 --> 00:46:35,339 in our neighborhood and she expressed 1224 00:46:40,309 --> 00:46:37,260 interest in what was happening there 1225 00:46:42,290 --> 00:46:40,319 they had a little TV that was just kind 1226 00:46:43,490 --> 00:46:42,300 of showing the martial arts moves and 1227 00:46:44,750 --> 00:46:43,500 she was like oh that's interesting I 1228 00:46:47,569 --> 00:46:44,760 want to know about that I think she was 1229 00:46:50,329 --> 00:46:47,579 about 11 at the time and so she ended up 1230 00:46:51,829 --> 00:46:50,339 walking in and talking with the person 1231 00:46:54,170 --> 00:46:51,839 who was running the martial arts studio 1232 00:46:55,849 --> 00:46:54,180 and took a introductory lesson and fell 1233 00:46:58,010 --> 00:46:55,859 in love with martial arts she now has 1234 00:46:59,630 --> 00:46:58,020 her black belt here we are probably over 1235 00:47:02,150 --> 00:46:59,640 five years later 1236 00:47:03,950 --> 00:47:02,160 and yes through that process of learning 1237 00:47:06,470 --> 00:47:03,960 martial arts and really committing to 1238 00:47:08,630 --> 00:47:06,480 that she became interested in Korean 1239 00:47:10,670 --> 00:47:08,640 culture and history and began reading 1240 00:47:13,430 --> 00:47:10,680 more about that and then 1241 00:47:15,770 --> 00:47:13,440 did some Korean language classes that 1242 00:47:18,170 --> 00:47:15,780 are on Duolingo which is a free online 1243 00:47:20,329 --> 00:47:18,180 language learning platform 1244 00:47:22,250 --> 00:47:20,339 she loved that but then wanted something 1245 00:47:23,690 --> 00:47:22,260 a little bit more rigorous so then I was 1246 00:47:26,990 --> 00:47:23,700 able to find her just kind of through 1247 00:47:29,630 --> 00:47:27,000 Community networks here in Boston a 1248 00:47:31,849 --> 00:47:29,640 native South Korean speaker who she met 1249 00:47:33,470 --> 00:47:31,859 with periodically to learn Korean 1250 00:47:35,930 --> 00:47:33,480 language so and she still loves 1251 00:47:37,370 --> 00:47:35,940 languages as a result of that but that's 1252 00:47:39,890 --> 00:47:37,380 another example of what I was saying 1253 00:47:42,530 --> 00:47:39,900 before that unschooling is not 1254 00:47:45,050 --> 00:47:42,540 necessarily not using curriculum or 1255 00:47:46,970 --> 00:47:45,060 using instructors and kind of these sort 1256 00:47:49,370 --> 00:47:46,980 of formal metrics of what we would 1257 00:47:52,250 --> 00:47:49,380 consider with education it just means 1258 00:47:53,809 --> 00:47:52,260 that it's all self-chosen yeah I think 1259 00:47:56,030 --> 00:47:53,819 that's really really interesting 1260 00:47:57,710 --> 00:47:56,040 especially that you just use your local 1261 00:48:00,230 --> 00:47:57,720 network I think that needs to happen 1262 00:48:01,849 --> 00:48:00,240 more and more in our society because we 1263 00:48:04,190 --> 00:48:01,859 kind of got away from it with these big 1264 00:48:07,190 --> 00:48:04,200 overarching Mega corporations just 1265 00:48:09,290 --> 00:48:07,200 standardizing everything for us and it 1266 00:48:12,170 --> 00:48:09,300 also probably speaks to why so many kids 1267 00:48:14,030 --> 00:48:12,180 myself included go through school and 1268 00:48:15,349 --> 00:48:14,040 come out and people finally start asking 1269 00:48:16,609 --> 00:48:15,359 well what do you want to do with your 1270 00:48:18,650 --> 00:48:16,619 life what are you interested in it's 1271 00:48:19,970 --> 00:48:18,660 like I don't know I never even got much 1272 00:48:22,250 --> 00:48:19,980 of a chance to think about it 1273 00:48:25,849 --> 00:48:22,260 everything's been kind of thrown at me 1274 00:48:27,829 --> 00:48:25,859 and it's probably a factor there's also 1275 00:48:30,109 --> 00:48:27,839 kind of a psychological issue I think 1276 00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:30,119 that parents probably deal with of 1277 00:48:35,089 --> 00:48:33,119 letting go to a degree maybe Letting Go 1278 00:48:37,670 --> 00:48:35,099 isn't the right term but another example 1279 00:48:39,950 --> 00:48:37,680 another place where this happens is 1280 00:48:43,069 --> 00:48:39,960 staying in jobs that we don't like 1281 00:48:45,170 --> 00:48:43,079 because we're afraid of the unknown we 1282 00:48:47,510 --> 00:48:45,180 can't quit because we just don't know 1283 00:48:49,250 --> 00:48:47,520 that other job that next thing it could 1284 00:48:51,950 --> 00:48:49,260 be worse than this even though this is 1285 00:48:53,569 --> 00:48:51,960 bad and I'm sure that happens in this 1286 00:48:55,130 --> 00:48:53,579 case too when you talk to new parents 1287 00:48:58,309 --> 00:48:55,140 that are like yeah I know the public 1288 00:49:00,109 --> 00:48:58,319 education system is in the toilet but I 1289 00:49:02,390 --> 00:49:00,119 went through it and I managed to come 1290 00:49:04,550 --> 00:49:02,400 out okay maybe I should just put my kid 1291 00:49:07,250 --> 00:49:04,560 in it because this unschooling thing 1292 00:49:09,349 --> 00:49:07,260 it's so unstructured it's I just don't 1293 00:49:12,050 --> 00:49:09,359 know about it and again the unknown is 1294 00:49:14,030 --> 00:49:12,060 scary to people do you end up having to 1295 00:49:15,950 --> 00:49:14,040 deal with that that there's parents who 1296 00:49:17,690 --> 00:49:15,960 know the system is sub-optimal but at 1297 00:49:19,370 --> 00:49:17,700 least it's what they know 1298 00:49:21,530 --> 00:49:19,380 well come on Greg you must have known 1299 00:49:23,510 --> 00:49:21,540 that you would be a podcaster when you 1300 00:49:25,490 --> 00:49:23,520 were in elementary school right I mean 1301 00:49:27,950 --> 00:49:25,500 of course but it's a perfect example of 1302 00:49:31,849 --> 00:49:27,960 we don't even know what the jobs will be 1303 00:49:34,010 --> 00:49:31,859 uh 5 10 15 years from now right so we 1304 00:49:37,250 --> 00:49:34,020 have a conventional system of schooling 1305 00:49:41,150 --> 00:49:37,260 that has set expectations and kind of 1306 00:49:43,010 --> 00:49:41,160 arbitrary curriculum goals that may be 1307 00:49:45,829 --> 00:49:43,020 completely mismatched with the jobs of 1308 00:49:49,010 --> 00:49:45,839 the future and we're not kind of helping 1309 00:49:52,190 --> 00:49:49,020 kids to develop those Curiosities and 1310 00:49:53,990 --> 00:49:52,200 critical thinking skills and agency kind 1311 00:49:55,490 --> 00:49:54,000 of the sense that they're in charge of 1312 00:49:57,490 --> 00:49:55,500 their own destiny that will really 1313 00:50:01,010 --> 00:49:57,500 enable them to 1314 00:50:03,650 --> 00:50:01,020 identify and adapt to whatever kind of 1315 00:50:05,329 --> 00:50:03,660 economic conditions might exist at the 1316 00:50:07,849 --> 00:50:05,339 time and whatever New Opportunities 1317 00:50:09,349 --> 00:50:07,859 might appear in the marketplace 1318 00:50:12,109 --> 00:50:09,359 and I think you make another really 1319 00:50:14,089 --> 00:50:12,119 interesting point that is so crucial is 1320 00:50:15,530 --> 00:50:14,099 I think a lot of us you know went 1321 00:50:17,329 --> 00:50:15,540 through I went through Public Schools 1322 00:50:19,309 --> 00:50:17,339 K-12 1323 00:50:20,990 --> 00:50:19,319 and you know kind of got good at playing 1324 00:50:23,089 --> 00:50:21,000 the game of school you know again 1325 00:50:24,950 --> 00:50:23,099 regurgitating for the teacher and the 1326 00:50:27,650 --> 00:50:24,960 test what they wanted 1327 00:50:29,630 --> 00:50:27,660 but not really kind of internalizing 1328 00:50:31,370 --> 00:50:29,640 this love of learning because it was 1329 00:50:32,870 --> 00:50:31,380 much more about Conformity and 1330 00:50:35,329 --> 00:50:32,880 compliance in school than about 1331 00:50:37,670 --> 00:50:35,339 creativity and curiosity 1332 00:50:38,870 --> 00:50:37,680 so I think a lot of us as adults might 1333 00:50:40,910 --> 00:50:38,880 look back on this and say well that's 1334 00:50:43,790 --> 00:50:40,920 just what school is like you just have 1335 00:50:45,950 --> 00:50:43,800 to grin and bear it and instead I think 1336 00:50:49,130 --> 00:50:45,960 I'd urge parents to say there is another 1337 00:50:50,809 --> 00:50:49,140 way like your kids don't have to well 1338 00:50:53,329 --> 00:50:50,819 first they shouldn't be miserable in 1339 00:50:55,910 --> 00:50:53,339 school there are joyful learning spaces 1340 00:50:59,450 --> 00:50:55,920 and ways in which children can learn and 1341 00:51:01,130 --> 00:50:59,460 develop that are just filled with joy 1342 00:51:03,470 --> 00:51:01,140 and happiness and that should be a 1343 00:51:05,210 --> 00:51:03,480 priority for parents but the other thing 1344 00:51:08,390 --> 00:51:05,220 to think about is that you know is it 1345 00:51:10,790 --> 00:51:08,400 really worth having your kids sort of 1346 00:51:14,210 --> 00:51:10,800 you leave their creativity and curiosity 1347 00:51:16,730 --> 00:51:14,220 at the schoolhouse door right and trade 1348 00:51:19,490 --> 00:51:16,740 creativity for compliance and kind of 1349 00:51:21,530 --> 00:51:19,500 learn to color in the lines and 1350 00:51:23,329 --> 00:51:21,540 stay in a straight line and all of that 1351 00:51:25,370 --> 00:51:23,339 when they're walking from class to class 1352 00:51:26,870 --> 00:51:25,380 like is that really what's going to help 1353 00:51:29,030 --> 00:51:26,880 them achieve 1354 00:51:32,030 --> 00:51:29,040 what a parent would want them to achieve 1355 00:51:33,650 --> 00:51:32,040 in later life and that achievement you 1356 00:51:36,470 --> 00:51:33,660 know is very much around I think 1357 00:51:38,270 --> 00:51:36,480 personal agency self-actualization human 1358 00:51:40,010 --> 00:51:38,280 flourishing and I'm just not sure that 1359 00:51:43,849 --> 00:51:40,020 kind of the standard system of schooling 1360 00:51:46,730 --> 00:51:43,859 can facilitate that mm-hmm yeah totally 1361 00:51:48,950 --> 00:51:46,740 agree and I guess before we really start 1362 00:51:51,170 --> 00:51:48,960 wrapping this thing up these are podcast 1363 00:51:53,450 --> 00:51:51,180 listeners and you said you're upping it 1364 00:51:55,549 --> 00:51:53,460 to two a week there are a lot of really 1365 00:51:58,569 --> 00:51:55,559 good stories on your podcast personal 1366 00:52:01,609 --> 00:51:58,579 stories from people are there particular 1367 00:52:03,710 --> 00:52:01,619 episodes that you thought were personal 1368 00:52:05,450 --> 00:52:03,720 favorites that maybe people should start 1369 00:52:07,670 --> 00:52:05,460 with if they wanted to jump into a 1370 00:52:10,250 --> 00:52:07,680 episode or two 1371 00:52:12,710 --> 00:52:10,260 oh that's great thank you yes the 1372 00:52:14,569 --> 00:52:12,720 podcast is the liberated podcast 1373 00:52:17,030 --> 00:52:14,579 you know I did one at the end of 1374 00:52:19,970 --> 00:52:17,040 November that I referenced in our 1375 00:52:22,370 --> 00:52:19,980 discussion today Greg that is about 1376 00:52:23,870 --> 00:52:22,380 these microscope Founders in Jackson 1377 00:52:26,450 --> 00:52:23,880 Mississippi 1378 00:52:28,809 --> 00:52:26,460 where the daughter is off of her anxiety 1379 00:52:32,690 --> 00:52:28,819 and ADHD medication so that was episode 1380 00:52:34,250 --> 00:52:32,700 51 in November 29th that would be one to 1381 00:52:36,290 --> 00:52:34,260 really think about 1382 00:52:38,270 --> 00:52:36,300 and then you know I mean I think they're 1383 00:52:41,569 --> 00:52:38,280 all they're also interesting I kind of 1384 00:52:43,790 --> 00:52:41,579 take a peek of what sort of works for 1385 00:52:45,950 --> 00:52:43,800 you know particular interests there's 1386 00:52:48,950 --> 00:52:45,960 one that I did in early November from a 1387 00:52:51,650 --> 00:52:48,960 visit in Kansas on microschooling and 1388 00:52:54,049 --> 00:52:51,660 neurodiversity so microscope Founders 1389 00:52:55,790 --> 00:52:54,059 creating an intentional microscope 1390 00:52:59,809 --> 00:52:55,800 Community for neurodiverse students 1391 00:53:01,069 --> 00:52:59,819 students with autism and ADHD and other 1392 00:53:03,530 --> 00:53:01,079 kinds of 1393 00:53:05,569 --> 00:53:03,540 disabilities that was a really I thought 1394 00:53:07,670 --> 00:53:05,579 inspirational one there's another one 1395 00:53:10,790 --> 00:53:07,680 with the founder who I mentioned is 1396 00:53:13,010 --> 00:53:10,800 whose goal is 100 schools in 10 years so 1397 00:53:14,930 --> 00:53:13,020 just kind of poke around and see but 1398 00:53:17,870 --> 00:53:14,940 just some great words of wisdom there 1399 00:53:21,349 --> 00:53:17,880 from entrepreneurs across the country 1400 00:53:23,809 --> 00:53:21,359 yes yes I love it Well Carrie this has 1401 00:53:26,030 --> 00:53:23,819 been really awesome of course unschooled 1402 00:53:28,730 --> 00:53:26,040 is the book tell them about any other 1403 00:53:30,650 --> 00:53:28,740 irons in the fire that you have that 1404 00:53:33,170 --> 00:53:30,660 they might want to follow up on 1405 00:53:34,910 --> 00:53:33,180 yeah so right now I'm just working on a 1406 00:53:36,170 --> 00:53:34,920 lot of Storytelling around these 1407 00:53:38,809 --> 00:53:36,180 entrepreneurs who are building 1408 00:53:40,849 --> 00:53:38,819 Innovative learning models continuing to 1409 00:53:43,190 --> 00:53:40,859 travel we'll be doing more travel in 1410 00:53:45,589 --> 00:53:43,200 2023 to different cities across the 1411 00:53:47,569 --> 00:53:45,599 country meeting with these clusters of 1412 00:53:49,849 --> 00:53:47,579 Education entrepreneurs telling their 1413 00:53:52,250 --> 00:53:49,859 stories at Forbes and in my columns at 1414 00:53:54,950 --> 00:53:52,260 fee I also have a a weekly email 1415 00:53:57,410 --> 00:53:54,960 newsletter that digs into kind of deeper 1416 00:53:59,210 --> 00:53:57,420 issues around the podcast guests and 1417 00:54:00,950 --> 00:53:59,220 also kind of educational Trends from 1418 00:54:02,270 --> 00:54:00,960 this fresh perspective maybe a 1419 00:54:03,230 --> 00:54:02,280 non-traditional unconventional 1420 00:54:05,750 --> 00:54:03,240 perspective 1421 00:54:09,470 --> 00:54:05,760 so love to have people follow me there 1422 00:54:11,930 --> 00:54:09,480 great awesome well thanks again I am 1423 00:54:13,970 --> 00:54:11,940 happy to see people taking back their 1424 00:54:16,309 --> 00:54:13,980 power in a lot of different ways and 1425 00:54:19,849 --> 00:54:16,319 education is one of the big areas where 1426 00:54:22,430 --> 00:54:19,859 it's most important and maybe we will 1427 00:54:25,309 --> 00:54:22,440 see the fruits in 20 years when our next 1428 00:54:28,069 --> 00:54:25,319 generation is more creative and less 1429 00:54:30,109 --> 00:54:28,079 constricted but uh this was great keep 1430 00:54:31,549 --> 00:54:30,119 doing what you do and take care thanks 1431 00:54:33,349 --> 00:54:31,559 Craig 1432 00:54:36,530 --> 00:54:33,359 good 1433 00:54:39,109 --> 00:54:36,540 heck yeah heck yeah our side shot are so 1434 00:54:40,970 --> 00:54:39,119 glad I put this one on the calendar I 1435 00:54:42,890 --> 00:54:40,980 think I originally learned about Carrie 1436 00:54:45,890 --> 00:54:42,900 When I Was preparing for the John Bush 1437 00:54:47,870 --> 00:54:45,900 interview he had Carrie on his show and 1438 00:54:50,750 --> 00:54:47,880 I just thought she was great 1439 00:54:53,210 --> 00:54:50,760 not only knowledgeable in a wide range 1440 00:54:55,370 --> 00:54:53,220 of creative things happening outside the 1441 00:54:57,829 --> 00:54:55,380 standard educational box but also being 1442 00:55:00,770 --> 00:54:57,839 a podcaster means I know she'll have a 1443 00:55:02,270 --> 00:55:00,780 decent audio setup it's hard to not at 1444 00:55:03,829 --> 00:55:02,280 least consider that when thinking about 1445 00:55:06,470 --> 00:55:03,839 who to bring on 1446 00:55:08,030 --> 00:55:06,480 so I'm glad she was willing to talk on a 1447 00:55:10,190 --> 00:55:08,040 show with a name like the higher side 1448 00:55:12,589 --> 00:55:10,200 chats given that she's a serious person 1449 00:55:15,349 --> 00:55:12,599 doing serious things 1450 00:55:17,809 --> 00:55:15,359 anyway also a big thank you to the plate 1451 00:55:20,750 --> 00:55:17,819 scrapers the Bluegrass boys of Virginia 1452 00:55:23,930 --> 00:55:20,760 for that opening theme cover if you like 1453 00:55:25,849 --> 00:55:23,940 that kind of music at all check them out 1454 00:55:26,930 --> 00:55:25,859 their YouTube channel has some great 1455 00:55:29,569 --> 00:55:26,940 stuff 1456 00:55:31,370 --> 00:55:29,579 someone in their Circle definitely knows 1457 00:55:34,370 --> 00:55:31,380 a lot about audio because even their 1458 00:55:36,230 --> 00:55:34,380 music videos the audio is just so crisp 1459 00:55:38,690 --> 00:55:36,240 it's hard not to love it 1460 00:55:40,730 --> 00:55:38,700 they actually did an original theme for 1461 00:55:42,950 --> 00:55:40,740 me back in the day when we were doing it 1462 00:55:45,230 --> 00:55:42,960 like that and then they were the first 1463 00:55:48,349 --> 00:55:45,240 to send me a cover of the one we're 1464 00:55:50,990 --> 00:55:48,359 using now at the time that it came out 1465 00:55:53,030 --> 00:55:51,000 and basically spawned this whole idea of 1466 00:55:54,230 --> 00:55:53,040 trying to collect more and more covers 1467 00:55:56,809 --> 00:55:54,240 of it so 1468 00:55:58,670 --> 00:55:56,819 I appreciate that they did it first and 1469 00:56:01,670 --> 00:55:58,680 uh for the idea 1470 00:56:04,309 --> 00:56:01,680 but yes even before I had a kid I was 1471 00:56:06,829 --> 00:56:04,319 kind of big on this Education topic the 1472 00:56:09,109 --> 00:56:06,839 history is spelled out so well that 1473 00:56:11,569 --> 00:56:09,119 obviously there was an ulterior motive 1474 00:56:14,030 --> 00:56:11,579 to compulsory schooling 1475 00:56:15,530 --> 00:56:14,040 that wasn't just trying to produce the 1476 00:56:18,650 --> 00:56:15,540 best and brightest 1477 00:56:20,630 --> 00:56:18,660 in our education is so critical to how 1478 00:56:22,790 --> 00:56:20,640 we think as adults 1479 00:56:24,530 --> 00:56:22,800 a lot of those patterns that are 1480 00:56:26,210 --> 00:56:24,540 established then carry on through the 1481 00:56:28,309 --> 00:56:26,220 rest of our lives 1482 00:56:31,190 --> 00:56:28,319 Carlin summed up a lot of this really 1483 00:56:33,470 --> 00:56:31,200 well in the early 2000s it's about three 1484 00:56:35,510 --> 00:56:33,480 minutes I'm just gonna play it 1485 00:56:36,770 --> 00:56:35,520 but if you talk to one of them about 1486 00:56:38,150 --> 00:56:36,780 this if you isolate one of them you sit 1487 00:56:40,490 --> 00:56:38,160 them down rationally you talk to them 1488 00:56:42,170 --> 00:56:40,500 about the low IQs and the dumb Behavior 1489 00:56:43,849 --> 00:56:42,180 and the bad decisions right away they 1490 00:56:45,710 --> 00:56:43,859 start talking about education that's the 1491 00:56:47,450 --> 00:56:45,720 big answer to everything education they 1492 00:56:49,130 --> 00:56:47,460 said we need more money for Education we 1493 00:56:51,170 --> 00:56:49,140 need more more books more teachers more 1494 00:56:53,089 --> 00:56:51,180 classrooms more schools we need more 1495 00:56:54,589 --> 00:56:53,099 testing for the kids you say to them 1496 00:56:56,450 --> 00:56:54,599 well you know we've tried all of that 1497 00:56:58,190 --> 00:56:56,460 and the kids still can't pass the test 1498 00:57:00,710 --> 00:56:58,200 so don't you worry about that we're 1499 00:57:01,609 --> 00:57:00,720 going to lower the passing grades that's 1500 00:57:02,870 --> 00:57:01,619 what they're doing a lot of these 1501 00:57:05,210 --> 00:57:02,880 schools now they lower the passing grade 1502 00:57:06,710 --> 00:57:05,220 so more kids can pass more kids pass the 1503 00:57:08,270 --> 00:57:06,720 school looks good everybody's happy the 1504 00:57:10,130 --> 00:57:08,280 IQ of the country slips another two or 1505 00:57:11,690 --> 00:57:10,140 three points and pretty soon all you'll 1506 00:57:13,549 --> 00:57:11,700 need to get into college is a 1507 00:57:18,290 --> 00:57:13,559 pencil 1508 00:57:20,270 --> 00:57:18,300 physics then everyone wonders why 17 1509 00:57:22,970 --> 00:57:20,280 other countries graduate more scientists 1510 00:57:24,890 --> 00:57:22,980 than we do thank you 1511 00:57:26,750 --> 00:57:24,900 and you just know that word they use 1512 00:57:29,450 --> 00:57:26,760 politicians have traditionally hidden 1513 00:57:32,450 --> 00:57:29,460 behind three things the flag the Bible 1514 00:57:34,790 --> 00:57:32,460 and children No Child Left Behind No 1515 00:57:35,809 --> 00:57:34,800 Child Left Behind oh really well it 1516 00:57:38,210 --> 00:57:35,819 wasn't long ago you were talking about 1517 00:57:40,370 --> 00:57:38,220 giving kids a Head Start Head Start left 1518 00:57:42,410 --> 00:57:40,380 behind someone's losing ground 1519 00:57:48,349 --> 00:57:42,420 here 1520 00:57:51,049 --> 00:57:48,359 reason education sucks and it's the same 1521 00:57:52,730 --> 00:57:51,059 reason that it will never ever ever be 1522 00:57:55,250 --> 00:57:52,740 fixed it's never going to get any better 1523 00:57:57,890 --> 00:57:55,260 don't look for it be happy with what you 1524 00:58:00,349 --> 00:57:57,900 got because the owners of this country 1525 00:58:03,109 --> 00:58:00,359 don't want that I'm talking about the 1526 00:58:05,150 --> 00:58:03,119 real owners now the real owners the big 1527 00:58:06,770 --> 00:58:05,160 wealthy business interests that control 1528 00:58:09,230 --> 00:58:06,780 things and make all the important 1529 00:58:10,549 --> 00:58:09,240 decisions forget the politicians the 1530 00:58:12,290 --> 00:58:10,559 politicians are put there to give you 1531 00:58:15,950 --> 00:58:12,300 the idea that you have freedom of choice 1532 00:58:19,370 --> 00:58:15,960 you don't you have no choice you have 1533 00:58:22,190 --> 00:58:19,380 owners they own you they own everything 1534 00:58:23,930 --> 00:58:22,200 they own all the important land they own 1535 00:58:25,130 --> 00:58:23,940 and control the corporations they've 1536 00:58:26,750 --> 00:58:25,140 long since bought and paid for the 1537 00:58:28,190 --> 00:58:26,760 Senate the Congress the state houses the 1538 00:58:29,930 --> 00:58:28,200 City Halls they got the judges in their 1539 00:58:31,790 --> 00:58:29,940 back pockets and they own all the big 1540 00:58:32,990 --> 00:58:31,800 media companies so they control just 1541 00:58:35,270 --> 00:58:33,000 about all of the news and information 1542 00:58:37,670 --> 00:58:35,280 you get to hear they got you by the 1543 00:58:41,990 --> 00:58:37,680 balls they spend billions of dollars 1544 00:58:43,010 --> 00:58:42,000 every year lobbying lobbying to get what 1545 00:58:46,849 --> 00:58:43,020 they want 1546 00:58:48,470 --> 00:58:46,859 more for themselves and less for 1547 00:58:50,390 --> 00:58:48,480 everybody else but I'll tell you what 1548 00:58:52,250 --> 00:58:50,400 they don't want they don't want a 1549 00:58:53,390 --> 00:58:52,260 population of citizens capable of 1550 00:58:55,609 --> 00:58:53,400 critical thinking they don't want 1551 00:58:57,170 --> 00:58:55,619 well-informed well-educated people 1552 00:58:58,789 --> 00:58:57,180 capable of critical thinking they're not 1553 00:59:01,010 --> 00:58:58,799 interested in that that doesn't help 1554 00:59:02,930 --> 00:59:01,020 them that's against their interests 1555 00:59:04,250 --> 00:59:02,940 that's right 1556 00:59:05,510 --> 00:59:04,260 they don't want people who are smart 1557 00:59:06,829 --> 00:59:05,520 enough to sit around the kitchen table 1558 00:59:08,089 --> 00:59:06,839 and figure out how badly they're getting 1559 00:59:10,130 --> 00:59:08,099 by a system that threw them 1560 00:59:11,569 --> 00:59:10,140 overboard 30 years ago they 1561 00:59:14,930 --> 00:59:11,579 don't want that you know what they want 1562 00:59:17,329 --> 00:59:14,940 they want obedient workers obedient 1563 00:59:19,130 --> 00:59:17,339 workers people who are just smart enough 1564 00:59:21,470 --> 00:59:19,140 to run the machines and do the paperwork 1565 00:59:23,630 --> 00:59:21,480 and just dumb enough to passively accept 1566 00:59:25,730 --> 00:59:23,640 all these increasingly shittier jobs 1567 00:59:28,010 --> 00:59:25,740 with the lower pay the longer hours the 1568 00:59:29,510 --> 00:59:28,020 reduced benefits the end of overtime and 1569 00:59:31,069 --> 00:59:29,520 the vanishing pension that disappears 1570 00:59:33,230 --> 00:59:31,079 the minute you go to collect it and now 1571 00:59:35,630 --> 00:59:33,240 they're coming for your Social Security 1572 00:59:38,390 --> 00:59:35,640 money they want your retirement 1573 00:59:40,069 --> 00:59:38,400 money they want it back so they can give 1574 00:59:41,630 --> 00:59:40,079 it to their criminal friends on Wall 1575 00:59:43,250 --> 00:59:41,640 Street and you know something they'll 1576 00:59:45,109 --> 00:59:43,260 get it they'll get it all from you 1577 00:59:47,510 --> 00:59:45,119 sooner or later because they own this 1578 00:59:49,630 --> 00:59:47,520 place it's a big Club 1579 00:59:54,789 --> 00:59:49,640 and you ain't in it 1580 00:59:57,530 --> 00:59:54,799 you and I are not in the big Club 1581 01:00:00,650 --> 00:59:57,540 and people always do remember that last 1582 01:00:02,390 --> 01:00:00,660 line but so much of the entire bit is 1583 01:00:04,490 --> 01:00:02,400 about education 1584 01:00:05,930 --> 01:00:04,500 it's getting worse and worse and they 1585 01:00:07,970 --> 01:00:05,940 don't care 1586 01:00:09,829 --> 01:00:07,980 the only thing I think he said that was 1587 01:00:10,910 --> 01:00:09,839 slightly incorrect is that it can't be 1588 01:00:13,010 --> 01:00:10,920 fixed 1589 01:00:14,990 --> 01:00:13,020 education as a government institution 1590 01:00:16,490 --> 01:00:15,000 yeah sure and I I know that's what he 1591 01:00:19,069 --> 01:00:16,500 really meant but the hope and 1592 01:00:20,510 --> 01:00:19,079 opportunity is in what's going on in 1593 01:00:22,490 --> 01:00:20,520 Carrie's world 1594 01:00:24,049 --> 01:00:22,500 so whether you have kids or not I would 1595 01:00:27,109 --> 01:00:24,059 hope that you'd find this interesting 1596 01:00:29,809 --> 01:00:27,119 because any signs that we might find a 1597 01:00:31,789 --> 01:00:29,819 way to turn this ship around in 20 years 1598 01:00:33,710 --> 01:00:31,799 is based on what we're seeing happening 1599 01:00:35,510 --> 01:00:33,720 with the kids today 1600 01:00:37,190 --> 01:00:35,520 so even if you don't have your own maybe 1601 01:00:39,770 --> 01:00:37,200 you have friends or family that have 1602 01:00:42,049 --> 01:00:39,780 kids that might be searching for 1603 01:00:43,190 --> 01:00:42,059 a person like Carrie and the unschooling 1604 01:00:45,890 --> 01:00:43,200 movement 1605 01:00:48,170 --> 01:00:45,900 or perhaps you just know people who are 1606 01:00:49,910 --> 01:00:48,180 actual teachers who have had complaints 1607 01:00:51,829 --> 01:00:49,920 recently and could benefit from a 1608 01:00:53,089 --> 01:00:51,839 realignment of their careers with some 1609 01:00:55,789 --> 01:00:53,099 of this stuff 1610 01:00:58,430 --> 01:00:55,799 I suspect that everything from social 1611 01:01:00,349 --> 01:00:58,440 media to the politicizing of the 1612 01:01:02,690 --> 01:01:00,359 classroom is really going to screw 1613 01:01:04,130 --> 01:01:02,700 things up for a long while before they 1614 01:01:06,890 --> 01:01:04,140 get any better 1615 01:01:09,829 --> 01:01:06,900 but unschooling and some of the truly 1616 01:01:11,150 --> 01:01:09,839 alternative models do make me long-term 1617 01:01:12,890 --> 01:01:11,160 optimistic 1618 01:01:15,230 --> 01:01:12,900 and who really knows what we'll be 1619 01:01:17,750 --> 01:01:15,240 dealing with by then but I see at least 1620 01:01:20,270 --> 01:01:17,760 something to be positive about in the 1621 01:01:22,789 --> 01:01:20,280 big shift out of the system 1622 01:01:25,069 --> 01:01:22,799 it never served us anyway right so why 1623 01:01:28,250 --> 01:01:25,079 do we trust it with our kids and why do 1624 01:01:30,829 --> 01:01:28,260 we keep going back to it not really much 1625 01:01:32,569 --> 01:01:30,839 more complicated than that is it 1626 01:01:35,870 --> 01:01:32,579 so if you want more of this kind of 1627 01:01:38,690 --> 01:01:35,880 thing her podcast liberated goes deep on 1628 01:01:40,490 --> 01:01:38,700 so many various personal stories 1629 01:01:42,289 --> 01:01:40,500 attached to this unschooling movement 1630 01:01:45,109 --> 01:01:42,299 it's really great 1631 01:01:46,549 --> 01:01:45,119 education of course is a core element of 1632 01:01:48,829 --> 01:01:46,559 how we gotten this mess that we have 1633 01:01:50,930 --> 01:01:48,839 today where so many critical thinkers 1634 01:01:53,329 --> 01:01:50,940 feel like they're on an island in their 1635 01:01:55,430 --> 01:01:53,339 families and friend groups 1636 01:01:57,349 --> 01:01:55,440 which makes it an important thing to 1637 01:01:59,750 --> 01:01:57,359 cover if you liked the first hour this 1638 01:02:01,730 --> 01:01:59,760 week or any week sign up for THC plus 1639 01:02:04,970 --> 01:02:01,740 and hear the second hour of all of these 1640 01:02:06,950 --> 01:02:04,980 interviews today we talked about common 1641 01:02:09,650 --> 01:02:06,960 mistakes that first time homeschoolers 1642 01:02:11,930 --> 01:02:09,660 tend to make common psychological 1643 01:02:14,150 --> 01:02:11,940 barriers that parents experience when 1644 01:02:17,809 --> 01:02:14,160 committing to unschooling 1645 01:02:20,510 --> 01:02:17,819 the Arizona Universal education savings 1646 01:02:23,510 --> 01:02:20,520 account policy quite Creative Learning 1647 01:02:26,569 --> 01:02:23,520 risk versus Danger for young kids 1648 01:02:28,730 --> 01:02:26,579 research on bullying and its relation to 1649 01:02:29,630 --> 01:02:28,740 the structured environment that they are 1650 01:02:38,990 --> 01:02:29,640 in 1651 01:02:40,130 --> 01:02:39,000 and the major failure of conventional 1652 01:02:42,530 --> 01:02:40,140 schooling 1653 01:02:44,329 --> 01:02:42,540 and some advice for those teachers that 1654 01:02:45,829 --> 01:02:44,339 would like to transition to an 1655 01:02:47,870 --> 01:02:45,839 unschooling career 1656 01:02:50,569 --> 01:02:47,880 we always get into a lot of good stuff 1657 01:02:52,250 --> 01:02:50,579 with that extra time and THC plus is 1658 01:02:54,770 --> 01:02:52,260 only eight bucks a month for the five 1659 01:02:57,109 --> 01:02:54,780 shows I put out less than a dollar an 1660 01:02:59,870 --> 01:02:57,119 hour which is a popular metric in the 1661 01:03:01,789 --> 01:02:59,880 value for Value model and I spare you 1662 01:03:03,170 --> 01:03:01,799 all the stupid ads that the other shows 1663 01:03:05,150 --> 01:03:03,180 are doing which has to be worth 1664 01:03:07,250 --> 01:03:05,160 something right 1665 01:03:09,470 --> 01:03:07,260 I think it's the best deal in podcasting 1666 01:03:12,950 --> 01:03:09,480 and it kicks off with a seven day free 1667 01:03:15,349 --> 01:03:12,960 trial hop on in and treat yourself we 1668 01:03:18,289 --> 01:03:15,359 cover more ground in two hour interviews 1669 01:03:20,750 --> 01:03:18,299 than some shows could do in four 1670 01:03:22,970 --> 01:03:20,760 the plus comment section is always 1671 01:03:25,010 --> 01:03:22,980 active and you can rate episodes along 1672 01:03:27,829 --> 01:03:25,020 with everyone else that I consider when 1673 01:03:30,289 --> 01:03:27,839 picking future show topics and you get 1674 01:03:33,530 --> 01:03:30,299 an RSS feed link that you can plug right 1675 01:03:35,270 --> 01:03:33,540 into the majority of podcasting apps and 1676 01:03:37,490 --> 01:03:35,280 most likely the one that you're 1677 01:03:40,370 --> 01:03:37,500 listening to me on right now 1678 01:03:43,010 --> 01:03:40,380 the higher sidechats.com pull it up in 1679 01:03:45,470 --> 01:03:43,020 your mobile browser it's quite easy 1680 01:03:47,270 --> 01:03:45,480 and to the actual Plus members I can't 1681 01:03:49,370 --> 01:03:47,280 thank you enough you really are the 1682 01:03:51,170 --> 01:03:49,380 muscle behind this show in a lot of ways 1683 01:03:53,809 --> 01:03:51,180 and you keep the train 1684 01:03:55,250 --> 01:03:53,819 chugging along hopefully for all my 1685 01:03:57,289 --> 01:03:55,260 remaining years 1686 01:03:59,329 --> 01:03:57,299 before we go it's important to look at 1687 01:04:01,730 --> 01:03:59,339 the events that you guys have created at 1688 01:04:04,490 --> 01:04:01,740 higherside meetups.com a free and open 1689 01:04:06,710 --> 01:04:04,500 Meetup calendar available to any THC 1690 01:04:08,930 --> 01:04:06,720 listeners who want to form a stronger 1691 01:04:10,609 --> 01:04:08,940 local community based on a mutual love 1692 01:04:11,870 --> 01:04:10,619 for the sort of things we talk about 1693 01:04:14,329 --> 01:04:11,880 around here 1694 01:04:16,730 --> 01:04:14,339 you do have to make an account it helps 1695 01:04:20,270 --> 01:04:16,740 us prevent spam and also it's just good 1696 01:04:22,849 --> 01:04:20,280 to have a person running point on any 1697 01:04:25,309 --> 01:04:22,859 event that shows up on the calendar but 1698 01:04:27,109 --> 01:04:25,319 it is not just for plus people and in 1699 01:04:29,390 --> 01:04:27,119 fact it's totally separate your Plus 1700 01:04:32,270 --> 01:04:29,400 account is not ported over there 1701 01:04:34,670 --> 01:04:32,280 I've seen some confusion in both regards 1702 01:04:37,250 --> 01:04:34,680 so just to set the record straight it is 1703 01:04:39,109 --> 01:04:37,260 for anyone and it is separate from any 1704 01:04:42,289 --> 01:04:39,119 person's Plus account 1705 01:04:44,870 --> 01:04:42,299 it is just a basic account that you 1706 01:04:48,049 --> 01:04:44,880 would make that is required for putting 1707 01:04:50,390 --> 01:04:48,059 events on the calendar and also for RSVP 1708 01:04:52,730 --> 01:04:50,400 which is just good form 1709 01:04:54,829 --> 01:04:52,740 it's polite you want a person to know 1710 01:04:57,170 --> 01:04:54,839 how many they should expect 1711 01:05:00,589 --> 01:04:57,180 but it is typically a good time from 1712 01:05:04,130 --> 01:05:00,599 what I hear and next on the list we got 1713 01:05:06,109 --> 01:05:04,140 the Los Angeles truthers on January 12th 1714 01:05:07,730 --> 01:05:06,119 going to Flame International Restaurant 1715 01:05:10,549 --> 01:05:07,740 once again 1716 01:05:13,190 --> 01:05:10,559 January 13th the 1717 01:05:16,069 --> 01:05:13,200 National Friday the 13th Meetup in 1718 01:05:20,210 --> 01:05:16,079 Nevada City at the national bar 1719 01:05:23,750 --> 01:05:20,220 also January 13th the sinspiracy monthly 1720 01:05:26,690 --> 01:05:23,760 Mad Tree Brewing Meetup for THC fans in 1721 01:05:30,170 --> 01:05:26,700 Cincinnati Ohio January 14th Denver 1722 01:05:32,510 --> 01:05:30,180 Colorado they are having a book swap on 1723 01:05:36,230 --> 01:05:32,520 top of just getting together also 1724 01:05:39,049 --> 01:05:36,240 January 14th the Williamton THC meet and 1725 01:05:41,210 --> 01:05:39,059 greet at Williamton Brewery Company in 1726 01:05:44,569 --> 01:05:41,220 Wilmington North Carolina 1727 01:05:46,670 --> 01:05:44,579 January 15th we have a meet up in Sandy 1728 01:05:48,950 --> 01:05:46,680 Utah at Athena beans 1729 01:05:51,710 --> 01:05:48,960 January 17th would you look at that 1730 01:05:54,170 --> 01:05:51,720 someone put one on the calendar for San 1731 01:05:57,230 --> 01:05:54,180 Diego at Society Brewing 1732 01:05:59,870 --> 01:05:57,240 I will just be getting off a plane from 1733 01:06:01,490 --> 01:05:59,880 a trip I'm taking to New Orleans with 1734 01:06:03,049 --> 01:06:01,500 some buddies of mine 1735 01:06:05,030 --> 01:06:03,059 but it's going to be hard to miss one 1736 01:06:05,990 --> 01:06:05,040 right here in my hometown we'll see what 1737 01:06:08,450 --> 01:06:06,000 happens 1738 01:06:11,630 --> 01:06:08,460 and then for the rest of January we have 1739 01:06:14,089 --> 01:06:11,640 some in Philadelphia one in Portland and 1740 01:06:15,890 --> 01:06:14,099 one in Guatemala 1741 01:06:18,289 --> 01:06:15,900 how interesting 1742 01:06:21,770 --> 01:06:18,299 if you're in any of those areas hop onto 1743 01:06:23,390 --> 01:06:21,780 the site and get the details as well as 1744 01:06:25,430 --> 01:06:23,400 RSVP 1745 01:06:29,569 --> 01:06:25,440 and if there's not one in your area hop 1746 01:06:32,270 --> 01:06:29,579 on the site and add it to the list 1747 01:06:34,849 --> 01:06:32,280 and that said it was great to have a 1748 01:06:35,990 --> 01:06:34,859 Solutions focused show today it is how 1749 01:06:38,510 --> 01:06:36,000 we win 1750 01:06:40,670 --> 01:06:38,520 what is the counter reaction to seeing 1751 01:06:43,609 --> 01:06:40,680 the world that's being built for us we 1752 01:06:46,309 --> 01:06:43,619 can't just stare at it in awe and say we 1753 01:06:47,450 --> 01:06:46,319 don't want it to show up because it 1754 01:06:50,270 --> 01:06:47,460 tends to 1755 01:06:52,309 --> 01:06:50,280 but if we want to build a better way for 1756 01:06:54,950 --> 01:06:52,319 ourselves and those who are on our page 1757 01:06:57,049 --> 01:06:54,960 well it starts here in education 1758 01:06:59,390 --> 01:06:57,059 so I really appreciate what Carrie does 1759 01:07:02,210 --> 01:06:59,400 let her know if you do too and I guess 1760 01:07:04,730 --> 01:07:02,220 I'll say that I've done my part your 1761 01:07:07,250 --> 01:07:04,740 move State curriculum Crafters obedience 1762 01:07:09,049 --> 01:07:07,260 training teachers and pawn making public 1763 01:07:14,289 --> 01:07:09,059 educators 1764 01:07:17,349 --> 01:07:15,880 you see 1765 01:07:21,829 --> 01:07:17,359 [Music] 1766 01:07:26,230 --> 01:07:21,839 the world is in random it's attached to 1767 01:07:28,690 --> 01:07:26,240 perfect strength control over 1768 01:07:33,410 --> 01:07:28,700 everything 1769 01:07:38,329 --> 01:07:33,420 the nine five is trying to steal you now 1770 01:07:41,450 --> 01:07:38,339 don't the job seems silly hello 1771 01:07:45,829 --> 01:07:41,460 can you hear me 1772 01:07:50,710 --> 01:07:45,839 should I play rap recordings from some 1773 01:07:53,349 --> 01:07:50,720 spying agency wish we were younger 1774 01:07:59,030 --> 01:07:53,359 and free 1775 01:08:02,829 --> 01:07:59,040 I'll be thankful when it's all exposed 1776 01:08:17,470 --> 01:08:02,839 [Music] 1777 01:08:41,370 --> 01:08:22,490 they're calling out a thousand girls 1778 01:08:57,719 --> 01:08:56,150 [Music] 1779 01:09:06,370 --> 01:08:57,729 [Applause] 1780 01:09:08,749 --> 01:09:06,380 [Music] 1781 01:09:11,709 --> 01:09:08,759 oh no 1782 01:09:16,370 --> 01:09:11,719 their cartoons 1783 01:09:20,950 --> 01:09:16,380 it's so typical of me to talk about 1784 01:09:23,769 --> 01:09:20,960 stuff I'm sorry that's good 1785 01:09:28,249 --> 01:09:23,779 and well 1786 01:09:32,709 --> 01:09:28,259 did you ever hear the argument that 1787 01:09:36,769 --> 01:09:32,719 nothing really happens it's no secret 1788 01:09:47,170 --> 01:09:36,779 and at the best is 1789 01:10:12,970 --> 01:09:58,370 [Music] 1790 01:10:33,830 --> 01:10:17,300 challenging your Paradise 1791 01:11:01,560 --> 01:10:35,740 foreign